To Be Or Not To Be?

[mystofpric]

Lady love's question on cheating made me think about a situtation of my own:

Golden Rod and I have been friends for many years now and before we really had a (strong) friendship we had benefits. Well GR is now in a live-in relationship with the Ice Princess. They have been together for 3 years (i think) and from the start sex was touch and go. As in she always had an excuse. Headaches, migranes, sick, anti-biotics, everything in the book. So here is a guy living with a woman who puts out once every blue moon. I should point out that GR is a bit of a sex addict and from what I understand she does like him watching porn or really taking matters into his own hands. Horrible really.

So how is this my problem? Well everytime GR and I are in a room together if we're not in some way restrained the clothes go flying and fast. The last time I saw him was after i had medical issues and I had doctors orders not to engage is extra curriculars. GR is perhaps my best friend ever, he reallyt has been there for me and put up witha ton of shit from me. So after he moved we had decided that I would have to go visit. Well as i painfully inch toward two years of no sex GR has decided that the patriotic and humane thing to do is for us to have sex (told you he was a good friend). Now I have some serious issues with this mainly, why would i do this to someone else (hook up with her b/f) when i wouldn't want it done to me? And is it really my problem any way? I mean I'm not dating her and if GR and I haven't dated as of yet I highly doubt we ever will (sad i know). But does that make it right? And honestly if she'd just take care of his needs he wouldn;t be coming to me at all. Right? I know, I tried man, of course i didn;t knwo he was seeing any one at the time but that's a totally different story. So does even considering (and yeah I'd be willing to put money on it actually happening) make me a bad person? OR is it is really not my issue at all?

And yeah I know, I hate cheaters so that REALLY makes me feel funny about the whole situtation. And yet, when the phermones start flying....

[sass]

Oh, my lil Suz, this is a toughy. I may get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but I don't think it makes you a terrible person. I have had intimate relations with men in committed relationships (i.e. ex-FWB) and my rational - no matter how totally irrational it seems - is that HE is the one that made a commitment to her, not ME. Should it matter? Nope. Should we have sex with people who are obviously in relationships with another? Nope. Does it happen? Yes.

I guess I kind of figured that she wanted his love, I didn't. I wanted sex, she didn't. So, it kind of worked and she and both got what we wanted. BUT, that kind of flippant, irresponsible, careless approach to sex and love is not for everyone. You have to decide what is right for YOU. Will you hate yourself in the morning? Will you be guilt-ridden? Will you be totally satisfied and walk around with a smile for another two years? Only you know all that, but you will still be my lil sex pet, no matter what you and GR do or don't do.

Just be careful - this kind of stuff can turn around to bite you. Rarely do we get away with being careless for very long. Emotions can mess up everything.

[vanilla_bean]

Yeah, what MslayD says. I think it mostly comes down to what you're OK with and whether or not this will get too complicated.

[sass]

Yeah, what MslayD says. I think it mostly comes down to what you're OK with and whether or not this will get too complicated.

Thanks for not throwing tomatoes, Beanie!

[mystofpric]

Thanks for not throwing tomatoes, Beanie!

yeah I guess the thing is that I'll be the first to own up to if i could have the whole package I would. In a freakin' heart beat. But i can't and I figure there has to be a reason for that. If, however, i can get just his package, then yeah I'll take that too!

When he first started dating I tested the limits (mostly because he didn;t tell me he was seeing her) and he was faithful and then when things first started going south I was the best friend I could and helped him try andf work things out (similar to advice we give on here, phrase things positively and not attackingly, talk to her, etc etc etc) but as time went on he got more and more miserable. To the point now I asked him point blank if he loved her (in the context of trying to help him fix things or see if he even wanted to) his answer? "Well, we have great intellectual conversations." Now I can understand answering it to me would be awkward but "well" proably shouldn't be your first thought right? i dunno. And really if he were that vested i wouldn't be a thought would I? Okay maybe a thought but certianly not an action. I feel bad for her but at teh same time i want to slap her upside the head and point out that she has as close to aperfect man (and penis hence teh nickname) as one can!

MsLayD, I'll throw my melons at you but NEVER tomatoes!

[sass]

MsLayD, I'll throw my melons at you but NEVER tomatoes!

YES! Throw away, my lovely!

[mystofpric]

YES! Throw away, my lovely!

Just watch your eyes, it's cold up here agian so they might be sharp!

[raniedaize]

Okay, I've looked at your post, and I've dissected it. You ask these key questions:

**Why would you do this to someone else when you wouldn't want it done to you?

**Is it really your problem anyway, and does this make it right?

**Does it make you a bad person?

**Is it really not your issue at all?

I think the first one reveals a fear of hypocrisy. By going through with it, you would, in effect, be setting up a double standard--You can be a mistress, but your man better never have one. It is said the best pillow is a clean conscience. So, my dear, is yours going to eat at you afterwards?

The second? To answer, think about it like this: You're sitting at a table with someone you know is overcoming alcoholism. He's been sober for about two months. With complete knowledge of his predicament, would you open bottles of liquor (those which you know are his favorite and weaknesses) and place them on the table between you? After a moment, the smell of the liquor will infiltrate his nostrils, the taste of it will be in the air on his tongue, and sitting there with nothing but you, the table, and the vodka, rum, and beer in the room, he will begin to twitch. The sixty days sobriety he's worked so hard for are three seconds away from being a thing of the past. Now, is his alcoholism your problem? No. Does this make it right? No. What you indeed would be is an enabler. In application, if your friend is not satisfied in his relationship, you'd be supplying an easy way out by the two of you engaging in an affair. And, while it may not be an "affair" in the emotional aspect of the term, it would still be constituted as cheating--no if's, and's, or but's about it. Sorry.

With referrence to your third question, considering all this does NOT make you a bad person. Who we are and how "good" or "evil" we might happen to be is dictated just as much by what we think and don't do as it is by what we think and do do. So, thinking and fantasizing about this by no means means you've crossed over to the dark side. Even if you had, we'd still love you anyway.

And for your final Q & A, if it involves you, it's your issue. Their relationship problems at present may not be, but if you do wind up sleeping with him before they're officially separated or unless she knowingly consents to the two of you, then yes, it will be your issue too.

Please, dear, do not think I ripped into you. I just meant to give replies to questions you raised, and in no way do I think less of you for posing them. Best of wishes, babe!

[Guest eminatic]

personally i think it is wrong to KNOWINGLY sleep with someone in a relationship. i don't think theres anything wrong with having multiple sex partners as long as ALL PARTIES are aware and ok with it. keeping anyone in the dark is just mean, from one human being to another, regardless of whether you are actually friends with them or not.

[Tyger]

Well, this is kinda a double-edged sword. I think many women have been where you are now. I know I have! So, I will go with how *I* dealt with "being the Other Woman". I dealt. LOL

I figured that, if the man truly LOVED & respected his woman he was living with, then, he wouldn't be with me. I NEVER went after men that were in relationships. THEY came after ME. I never betrayed a friend of MINE. It's not the O.W. job to make sure that the man keeps his promises to his woman, it's HIS. They weren't serious, for the most part. Only one was heading towards serious.

Only once did I give a man an ultimatum, after about 3 mos of playing around. He'd kept telling me he was leaving his GF, and didn't. So, he couldn't make up his mind, and I made it for him, I cut it off, as in the relationship, you sickos!! LMAO

Now, if the woman that your friend was with is a good friend to you, then I would throw a tomatoe at you, however, she's not, and it's not YOUR job to keep him in line. It's HIS.

If you ARE feeling guilty, or bad about yourself, and what you're doing, then I would avoid situations where the 2 of you ware going to possibly be alone. Until he either re-commits to her, or breaks it off with her, then he's going to have his cake & eat it too.

Good luck, Darlin!!!

[Guest eminatic]

my personal policy is that i would NEVER sleep with a man who was willing to do it behind his partner's back. even if i hated the other girl in question. once a cheater always a cheater, and besides, any man willing to do something so low wouldn't be worth my time anyway.

IF the guy doesnt love or respect the woman he's with, then he owes it to her to cut it off BEFORE pursuing anyone else.

[synirr]

You could try to help the guy decide if his current relationship is worth saving, then help him either try to salvage it, or be there for support after they split.

That's the ideal of course, but we're not all saints, myself included. If, however, you're asking if it's morally reprehensible, then IMO yes. What's more powerful? Your libido or the potential guilt? That's really the deciding factor.

[mystofpric]

Please, dear, do not think I ripped into you. I just meant to give replies to questions you raised, and in no way do I think less of you for posing them. Best of wishes, babe!

Honey if that's what you call ripping into me, you can do it more often! You had great well formed thoughts and opinions and really gave me the other side of the coin to thnk about.

Well, this is kinda a double-edged sword. I think many women have been where you are now. I know I have! So, I will go with how *I* dealt with "being the Other Woman". I dealt. LOL

I figured that, if the man truly LOVED & respected his woman he was living with, then, he wouldn't be with me. I NEVER went after men that were in relationships. THEY came after ME. I never betrayed a friend of MINE. It's not the O.W. job to make sure that the man keeps his promises to his woman, it's HIS. They weren't serious, for the most part. Only one was heading towards serious.

....

If you ARE feeling guilty, or bad about yourself, and what you're doing, then I would avoid situations where the 2 of you ware going to possibly be alone. Until he either re-commits to her, or breaks it off with her, then he's going to have his cake & eat it too.

Good luck, Darlin!!!

The cake thing! I say that all the time! He totally is too! I have no intention of giving him an ultimatium, but it does feel funny at times knowing that she lives there, but then again, if this was really a happy home....

my personal policy is that i would NEVER sleep with a man who was willing to do it behind his partner's back. even if i hated the other girl in question. once a cheater always a cheater, and besides, any man willing to do something so low wouldn't be worth my time anyway.

IF the guy doesnt love or respect the woman he's with, then he owes it to her to cut it off BEFORE pursuing anyone else.

Well here's the thing with once a cheater always a cheater: He has, so i guess he is, but I'm not going to be dating him. And really if he's straying for lack of sex and I mean if he were with me full time lack of sex wouldn't be an issue.

You could try to help the guy decide if his current relationship is worth saving, then help him either try to salvage it, or be there for support after they split.

That's the ideal of course, but we're not all saints, myself included. If, however, you're asking if it's morally reprehensible, then IMO yes. What's more powerful? Your libido or the potential guilt? That's really the deciding factor.

I honestly have tried before the idea of a hook-up ever formed in our wee-little brains. And then even afterward. I mean he's my best friend, I hate hearing that he's miserable with her. He really is an amazing guy and deserves to be happy. Years ago when they first started dating and hit their first major rough patch ( over this SAME DAMN ISSUE) I asked him if she was worth working out the kinks for and he said yes, now I ask if he loves her and I get "well..."so I can see a huge difference.

I dunno, I feel like i'm searching for reasons to make this right but on the flip side I'm not looking all that hard...

[Guest eminatic]

honestly i think this is a horrible thing to do to another human being, whether you are friends with the other girl or not. no one deserves this and i would not wish it upon anyone. he needs to cut it off with his current partner before any sex happens.

[mystofpric]

honestly i think this is a horrible thing to do to another human being, whether you are friends with the other girl or not. no one deserves this and i would not wish it upon anyone. he needs to cut it off with his current partner before any sex happens.

Well from what I have understood he has told her time and time agian that the relationship has become more like roommates and that ots not working for him. I honestly think that the only reason they are still together isthat nagging fear of being alone. He may be miserable with her but he figures (i'm guessing) it'd be worse not to have someone there at all. I don't know her side of the story for all I know he can be a complete asshole to live with and a terrible boyfriend. Now from knowing some of his exes I don't think that's the case (and no he didn't cheat on any of them).

I'd love to hear from some of our guys who have been in relationships with women who aren't interested in sex and see what they have to say since they would basically be in his shoes (more than I pray I ever will be, sorry guys)

[Guest eminatic]

well, being a woman who is completely uninterested in sex i have to say that is a complete BS reason to deceive someone in such a horrible fashion. just because a person has no interest in sex does not mean that they dont have any feelings.

going from a sexless "room mate" relationship to being alone IS a HUGE step. its obvious that sex is more important to this guy than whatever else he thought he saw in her, which is fine. but it is just plain mean to continue to waste her time and lie to her by just going behind her back. of course no one WANTS to be the bearer of bad news but trying to "protect" people by avoiding the truth only results in even greater pain later. he needs to be a man, he owes it to himself and to her to stop wasting BOTH of their time.

pursuing different trysts behind her back only sends the message " i don't really like you but i'm still going to keep you around as my plan B just in case i can't find anything better"

there are not many things that are worse than the feeling of being used.

[mystofpric]

there are not many things that are worse than the feeling of being used.

Agreed. I get the feeling he did want this to work, last time they argued he told her flat out that they felt more like roommates than bf&gf. That was only a few weeks ago because i thought they were really gonna work it out and now he's back wanting me to go visit. So i dunno. Its like Tyger said he's getting his cake and eatting it too! (never got that saying) I'm all about being eatten and all

I'm gonna be honest, I'm probably gonna go for it, moral qunderies and all. I don't see them getting married having babies and all that jazz. Especially not the babies, me thinks she'd flip at that one! I'm really hoping he breaks it off before i get down there. Who knows maybe she's just waiting until the end of the school year so she can move back home and not have to worry about finding a place for a few months.

[Sunday]

You're sitting at a table with someone you know is overcoming alcoholism. He's been sober for about two months. With complete knowledge of his predicament, would you open bottles of liquor (those which you know are his favorite and weaknesses) and place them on the table between you? After a moment, the smell of the liquor will infiltrate his nostrils, the taste of it will be in the air on his tongue, and sitting there with nothing but you, the table, and the vodka, rum, and beer in the room, he will begin to twitch. The sixty days sobriety he's worked so hard for are three seconds away from being a thing of the past. Now, is his alcoholism your problem? No. Does this make it right? No. What you indeed would be is an enabler. In application, if your friend is not satisfied in his relationship, you'd be supplying an easy way out

That's really a great analogy, although it seems to me she would be supplying an easy way to avoid dealing with the problem, rather than providing a way out. Sounds like these two people need to decide whether they want to be in a dysfunctional relationship or not, and by having sex with him she is helping him put off the day of reckoning. Maybe it would be better for a friend to help him find some resolution to his problem. If he ends the relationship, THEN screw his brains out. To apply it to the alcoholic analogy, I would never want to be instrumental in a recovering alcoholic deciding to drink, but I might sit down and have a few with him after he had made the decision to drink again.

[mystofpric]

That's really a great analogy, although it seems to me she would be supplying an easy way to avoid dealing with the problem, rather than providing a way out. Sounds like these two people need to decide whether they want to be in a dysfunctional relationship or not, and by having sex with him she is helping him put off the day of reckoning. Maybe it would be better for a friend to help him find some resolution to his problem. If he ends the relationship, THEN screw his brains out. To apply it to the alcoholic analogy, I would never want to be instrumental in a recovering alcoholic deciding to drink, but I might sit down and have a few with him after he had made the decision to drink again.

Well but here's the thing. This guy has been with his girlfreidn for 3 years, they had problems a few months in (this same problem) and I told him then, back before sex between he and I was an option, If she makes him happy in every other way but the sex then you have something to work on not bail because of. If it's that big of an issue that you can't reconcile the other pleasurses without that one then ending it early is easiest. I kept this line of thinking, and talking, up until recently when it become abundantly clear that it wasn't going to work out. Even then i waited for him to admit defeat before accepting any genuine flirtations. So this isn't a completely selfish thing, I have tried genuienly tried as I do want to see him happy. I feel like that is falling on deaf ears as this is the third time I've mentioned it.

[synirr]

I feel like that is falling on deaf ears as this is the third time I've mentioned it.

Honesty, and I say this with all the love I can... I don't think it's falling on deaf ears, I just think the people posting in this thread find the whole idea distasteful. You tried to help their relationship (which is admirable) and found that you are unable, but what you intend to do is going to actively hurt it when she finds out. The blame isn't all on you, he's obviously playing the major role, but you will be aiding him in bringing the relationship down in a particularly painful way for his partner. That's really all there is to it... you can either live with that or you can't, but it's probably useless to attempt to justify it.

[mystofpric]

Honesty, and I say this with all the love I can... I don't think it's falling on deaf ears, I just think the people posting in this thread find the whole idea distasteful. You tried to help their relationship (which is admirable) and found that you are unable, but what you intend to do is going to actively hurt it when she finds out. The blame isn't all on you, he's obviously playing the major role, but you will be aiding him in bringing the relationship down in a particularly painful way for his partner. That's really all there is to it... you can either live with that or you can't, but it's probably useless to attempt to justify it.

No I get that they find it distasteful, I'm okay with that, that's why i posted to get a varied opinion base. But is upsetting is the fact that my quality of friend is being call into question. Repeatedly. Now He and i have not hooked up as yet, no plane tickets bought no hotel rooms booked. OKay well not in many many year, in fact longer than he's known her. I'm not justifing anything, I am defending our friendship, which is important above all else. Now as I said he and I are both kinda holding our breathe to see if she's going to stay into the summer or just not renew her contract with her school and move back home. If she does then all this stress is for naught, if she doesn't then we need to really think this through. What I am doing now is saying "hey, this is the sitch, this is how i feel, good bad or indifferent. What do you think?" I'm not DOING anything beyond that at the moment. As far as flitations that's bee our friendship since day one, i'm sorry if she doesn't like it but i've known him much longer. So yes, was the part about me beinga good friend (at a great deal of pain to myself I admit) and trying to help him salvage the relatioship falling on deaf ears? Yes. Is the fact that he and I haven't done anything (note we're 12 hrs apart) also falling on deaf ears? Yes. Is the fact that i do have concerns about this whole situtations falling on deaf ears? Yeah, that'd be three for three!

[synirr]

Well, it's certainly not falling on deaf ears here -- I hear you. That said, you asked for opinions and you're getting them I guess?

[ladylove]

Suzy, you can rationalize anything you want in life. Your the only one that has to live with yourself. I personally think it's not fair to the other relationship or you, and the guy is, well.....yuck! How do you know for certain what goes on behind closed bedroom doors? He's not married to this girl, why is he still with her? If he hasn't left her yet, do you really think there is a hope in hell for that? If he's cheating on her with you, how many others are there? If he left her today, would you really want him? If he cheats of her, what makes you think he wouldn't do it to you.

And here is the biggie.......

Why are you allowing yourself to be second best, a mere booty call? You are so much better than that.

A FWB is completely different form what this guy is. I understand you may be using him for just sex at this point, but look at the whole picture. He's not a good friend, or a good boyfriend if he comes around to just to have sex at this point.

*I hope nothing I typed has offended you in any way, it's not meant to if it has.*

[Sunday]

And here is the biggie.......

Why are you allowing yourself to be second best, a mere booty call? You are so much better than that.

A FWB is completely different form what this guy is. I understand you may be using him for just sex at this point, but look at the whole picture. He's not a good friend, or a good boyfriend if he comes around to just to have sex at this point.

I wonder what implications this has for the future. What happens to your friendship with GR if you run into someone you are madly in love with who wants a monogamous relationship with you. Do you tell GR it was just sex and there won't be any more? Are you SURE it's just sex for him? I ask because personally, I can't have "just sex." (I guess I could, but I don't want to) There has to be some connection - one that is deep enough that I will be hurt if it is broken off. And what do you tell your new SO? Do you keep it from him? What kind of relationship can you have with someone if you are keeping such secrets from them?? I understand the desire to do this, but I don't think it's a good idea.

[mystofpric]

Suzy, you can rationalize anything you want in life. Your the only one that has to live with yourself. I personally think it's not fair to the other relationship or you, and the guy is, well.....yuck! How do you know for certain what goes on behind closed bedroom doors? He's not married to this girl, why is he still with her? If he hasn't left her yet, do you really think there is a hope in hell for that? If he's cheating on her with you, how many others are there? If he left her today, would you really want him? If he cheats of her, what makes you think he wouldn't do it to you.

And here is the biggie.......

Why are you allowing yourself to be second best, a mere booty call? You are so much better than that.

A FWB is completely different form what this guy is. I understand you may be using him for just sex at this point, but look at the whole picture. He's not a good friend, or a good boyfriend if he comes around to just to have sex at this point.

*I hope nothing I typed has offended you in any way, it's not meant to if it has.*

Well he is a good friend, in fact probably my best friend. The sex is or rather would be secondary to that always. Besides he'd be a terrible FWB from 12 hrs away It also means that there would be no dating even if he wasn't with her. I should probably mention that the only reason I would even consider this, even if it is some of the best sex ever known to man-kind (or me at any rate) is that by July, when I'd be seeing him i will have gone 20 months without sex. And there is a chance of just going to visit without any kind of sex, though that would be tough, I only have so much will power ya know.

PS Thanks hun, i know i'm worth more but sometimes after this long, well, ya know....

I wonder what implications this has for the future. What happens to your friendship with GR if you run into someone you are madly in love with who wants a monogamous relationship with you. Do you tell GR it was just sex and there won't be any more? Are you SURE it's just sex for him? I ask because personally, I can't have "just sex." (I guess I could, but I don't want to) There has to be some connection - one that is deep enough that I will be hurt if it is broken off. And what do you tell your new SO? Do you keep it from him? What kind of relationship can you have with someone if you are keeping such secrets from them?? I understand the desire to do this, but I don't think it's a good idea.

Well as far as me finding someone goes, unlikely but hopeful none the less. And if that were to happen, yeah, GR would be cut off cold turkey. As much as I want him to be happy, he feels the same for me. He would still be my best friend, whether or not we sleep together or if we are dating other people. This has in fact sorta happened, last year i was trying to see a guy from work I told GR that I had to be fair to this guy and giveit a chance. Now at that time all GR and I were doing was flirting, though fairly heavily, and he agreed and backed off as much as we comfortably could.

Now as far as my SO goes, who i slept with in the past is, I'm gonna say it, none of their business. GR and I have has sex before, 5-ish years ago, but still it happened. If I were to date someone tomorrow, fall in love and get married, I wouldn't bring up the fact that GR and I hooked up. If asked, I wouldn't lie, but i wouldn't bring it up.

I brought this up because I do want opinions, this is as close to research as I can get (i'm a google-girl) without actually doing it and watching what happens after. As my friends here know I have been struggling with this for quite sometime, and i have been flip-flopping on it. One day i'm gung-ho for it and the next, well no.