What Should I Do?

[tkla]

Thursday afternoon I was at my computer desk, a friend of mine was at the desk too. My daughter, who is two and weighs 23 pounds...she's tiny) came over and tried to climb into my friend's chair. I heard friend say no, and I said "there isn't room at the desk for all of us honey" Daughter started having a tantrum, and (i didn't see this because my chair was facing the other way) hit her mouth on my friend's chair. So, friend caught her by the HAND to pick her up and see if she was ok. Daughter is a mama's girl, so she started shrieking and wiggling (I didn't realize she had been hurt, thought she was just having a tantrum until this point) as I turned around friend had Daughter in her arms and took her to her room because she was crying (I've done this if she is having a tantrum, but NEVER if she's crying because she's been hurt) So I got up to go see what was the matter and daughter launched herself into my arms. She was holding her arm and crying really really hard. Definitely not a tantrum cry. So I cuddled her on my lap and tried to distract her thinking she was still upset....still holding her arm. So I took her in the bedroom and called my pediatrician to explain what had happened and see if I should take her to the ER. Dr. said to give her some motrin and if she wasn't better to take her in the morning. So I have her motrin, and it didn't help at all. So when dh got home to stay with our son, I took her to the ER. They bent and wiggled her arm all over the place, and on three separate occasions said "I just felt it pop back in" when she still couldn't move it, they took x-rays. We waited for the results....which came back clean (thankfully!) and he once again twisted her arm to pop her elbow back into place. After this he left he room and came back in with a referral to an orthopedic specialist for the next day. He said it wouldn't hurt her to move it, and to just take her home and schedule the ortho appt. So I had a miserable baby who is in Serious pain all night...I even called the ortho to see if I could take her to the one on call, but since she wasn't already a patient, they wouldn't let me. So after being up all night to try to keep her as comfortable as possible, I was finally able to schedule the ortho appointment. They had her x-rays from the night before, and the Dr. examined her arm twice to make sure he wasn't missing anything, then once again, popped her elbow back into place and said "I'll check on her in a minute" Just like the night before, when he came back she still couldn't move her arm and when he checked it again he discovered that it had popped back out. So he put it back into place for the FIFTH time and had me hold it in position until they could get a plaster splint on to hold it in place. This splint must have been magic because she has been completely back to normal since they immobilized her arm.

So my point is....Who picks up a toddler by the HAND??? She didn't even act sympathetic...even went as far as to ask if daughter could be Faking since the ER dr. wasn't able to fix the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell???? I have an injured child, an outrageous ER bill coming, and tons of Orthopedic Specialist bills coming...especially since my deductible hasn't been met yet. I'm SO MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant!

[lil_librarian]

It does not sound like it was your friend's intention to hurt your daughter, although it was pretty careless to pick a child up like that. I would certainly let your friend know though that picking your daughter up by the hand resulted in a pretty bad injury. You know your friend better than I, could she have been trying to deflect the blame because she was embarassed? Even so, it is not a good reason. Not sure how friendly you will want to be in the future with a person who does not understand how to apologize and show remorse. But yeah, if it was me, I would definately (in a calm direct fact based manner) let "my friend" know what the outcome was. Hope your daughter is feeling better.

[Tyger]

I'm sorry your child was hurt, and I hope she can get all fixed up soon!

This is a tough call. The child was in your house, and your friend was at your computer. However, the child was trying to get up in their lap, even after being told no. Normally, no, you don't catch a child by the hand, if you can help it. But, it could be argued that they grabbed her wherever they could to try and save her from immenent danger (meaning right before or when she hit her mouth, and trying to help her NOT get hurt). You don't usually aim for where you try and save someone, you just grab, and that sounds like it may be the case. Before any confrontation is done, however, I would ask her to write up a statement, so that you can't be charged for any sort of child abuse, because, let's face it, allegations fly quite a bit, and the doctor's are under obligation to report any sort of possible abuse.

It sounds to me like your friend that did the damage, probably accidentally, doesn't have kids, so can't truly sympathize/empathize as easily. I know that, before I had kids, it was impossible for me to truly understand what my parent-friends were going thru. If your friend is acting so blasee' about the whole thing, even when confronted with the truth, you may want to stress how upset you are, and demand that she apologize to you and your daughter. If she refuses to do that, and is so callous about it all, I would seriously reconsider the friendship.

As far as doctor bills go, since I am doubting that she did this on purpose/malliciously, and it was like a "knee-jerk" reaction, and in your home, with you there, then, and I'm no lawyer, but I don't think that you can recoup anything from her financially unless she offers to help. Again, I'm no legal-eagle, but I think that the medical bills would fall under normal parental responsibilities.

Best Wishes and Bright Blessings!!!

[tkla]

I didn't mean to imply that it was intentional..or malicious in any way! I know she didn't mean to cause my daughter harm. It was the complete carelessness of the situation that is driving me crazy! She didn't grab her by the hand because she was falling. She lifted her up off the floor by the hand in an attempt to hand her to me because she was crying. It was definitely a dumb thing to do...and I know it was an accident, but aren't we still responsible for accidents? If I back my car into someone else's car....I still have to pay for the damage, even though it was an accident. Correct? I'm just frustrated, I feeling bad for my baby....

[Guest eminatic]

i agree with tyger, it sounds like she did it out of reflex without thinking.

for the record, i don't have kids, have never been around small children and have no clue how to handle a child. i only know what i see in public, and i see parents carry/grab their children my the arm all the time so i probably wouldnt know the difference either...

[mystofpric]

I didn't mean to imply that it was intentional..or malicious in any way! I know she didn't mean to cause my daughter harm. It was the complete carelessness of the situation that is driving me crazy! She didn't grab her by the hand because she was falling. She lifted her up off the floor by the hand in an attempt to hand her to me because she was crying. It was definitely a dumb thing to do...and I know it was an accident, but aren't we still responsible for accidents? If I back my car into someone else's car....I still have to pay for the damage, even though it was an accident. Correct? I'm just frustrated, I feeling bad for my baby....

See I have seen parents picking kids up by the arms and hands before, and it didn't do any damage, is it possible that your daughter's wriggling was part of the cause of the injury? I mean when your playing witha child and spinning in circles your holding them by the arms with some pretty serious forces going on. I'm not blaming your daught, you or the friend, I'm just trying to point out, as a non-parent, I've seen these things happen and wouldn't assume that it could hurt a kid that much. Maybe your friend is too? Take an hour or so and go sit at the mall or in walmart and watch how people deal with their young children, then confront your friend after watching this. Maybe this is what your friend based her judgement on?

[Amylynn920]

She lifted her up off the floor by the hand

Do you mean to her feet or were her feet dangling off the floor? If they were dangling and she was picking her up like that, that's not acceptable. I can understand helping a child to their feet but feet dangling? No.

Sorry but if that happened in my home, the friend would know exactly what caused this ER trip, and know my child's injury was caused by their actions. An accident yes but accountable none the less. Your poor child.

[tkla]

Yep, she picked her up completely off the floor by one hand. She has been over since it happened, and saw the splint on daughter's arm....she knows the incident caused it, but still doesn't seem to acknowledge that she played a part in it happening. I think that's what bothers me the most...if I hurt a child....mine or not...(and I have before, my son has been to the ER before) I would feel TERRIBLE!!!!! When my son fell out of a swing and had to have his forehead glued up at the ER I cried as much as he did. So I guess that's what is driving me crazy.

I have helped my daughter up by the hand, and my son, but never lifted them completely off the floor by one hand. Especially when they were having a tantrum. Then if I pick them up at all, I scoop them up by the body.

[crossroads123]

I'm so sorry your child got hurt, hoping ang praying for a complete and speedy recovery. I'm sure it was a total unthinking accident, but hurt one of my children and it gets ASS KICKING TIME IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mystofpric]

I have helped my daughter up by the hand, and my son, but never lifted them completely off the floor by one hand. Especially when they were having a tantrum. Then if I pick them up at all, I scoop them up by the body.

But your a parent, your friend isn't, correct? You can't honestly blame the friend if it was intentional because you were sitting right there. The legal term would be neglect, yeah maybe your friend should have picked her up like that but maybe she didn't know, you did and you were sitting right there watching this go on. Are you just trying to assign blame so you don't feel guilty? I know this sounds harsh but I think it's also harsh for you to be putting all teh blame on your friend. Maybe she does feel ridiculously bad and doesn't know how to express it, is that possible? Is it possible that her being defensive is because she realizes that she played a role in your daughter's getting hurt and doesn't know how to cope with that?

[mailahn97]

I will say this back 3 years ago a friend of mines daughter tripped and started to fall down the steps. Her father reached and could only grab her arm. If popped her elbow out. He is a parent and it still happened and he is a very good parent. Sometimes you react before think. Thing is if he wouldn't have grabbed her she could have been hurt even more severely.

They took her to the hospital and the othro. Come to find out she has weak elbow joints. The slightest pull can pop it right out and it is something she will have for the rest of her life. This is not something that was caused by her father. It was something she already had but is not something you are gonna test for.

This past summer she was playing on the monkey bars and being a normal 6 year old she was swinging and again popped one out. Just something that happens.

As far as the medical bills if you don't have insurance check with the hospital. Most states have what is called charity care. Depending upon income they will cover some or all of the hospital bill.

You friend was being a friend I do not feel it was malicious in any way. It doesn't matter whether you are a parent or not if could still happen. It was an accident and I feel it was nothing more than that.

[Guest eminatic]

But your a parent, your friend isn't, correct? You can't honestly blame the friend if it was intentional because you were sitting right there. The legal term would be neglect, yeah maybe your friend should have picked her up like that but maybe she didn't know, you did and you were sitting right there watching this go on.

yeah, this is pretty much what i'm thinking. maybe as a non-parent there is something that we are just not seeing? as a non parent i only know what i see on tv and in public, and to me your friend's actions do not seem like outrageous behavior

[tkla]

"Daughter started having a tantrum, and (i didn't see this because my chair was facing the other way) hit her mouth on my friend's chair. So, friend caught her by the HAND to pick her up and see if she was ok. Daughter is a mama's girl, so she started shrieking and wiggling (I didn't realize she had been hurt, thought she was just having a tantrum until this point) as I turned around friend had Daughter in her arms and took her to her room because she was crying"

As I said in my initial post...I DIDN'T see this happen, I just know what I heard. I also thought I clarified that she wasn't catching her or keeping her from falling...She was picking her up AFTER she thought she had bumped her mouth. This was in no way a preventative measure. I know that accidents happen, I've said this as well! I am simply floored because she has shown no remorse for her part of this! A little sympathy for my two year old would be nice, and it's all I ask. I don't seriously expect her to pay the bills, it would just be nice if she seemed a little apologetic.

[mystofpric]

"Daughter started having a tantrum, and (i didn't see this because my chair was facing the other way) hit her mouth on my friend's chair. So, friend caught her by the HAND to pick her up and see if she was ok. Daughter is a mama's girl, so she started shrieking and wiggling (I didn't realize she had been hurt, thought she was just having a tantrum until this point) as I turned around friend had Daughter in her arms and took her to her room because she was crying"

As I said in my initial post...I DIDN'T see this happen, I just know what I heard. I also thought I clarified that she wasn't catching her or keeping her from falling...She was picking her up AFTER she thought she had bumped her mouth. This was in no way a preventative measure. I know that accidents happen, I've said this as well! I am simply floored because she has shown no remorse for her part of this! A little sympathy for my two year old would be nice, and it's all I ask. I don't seriously expect her to pay the bills, it would just be nice if she seemed a little apologetic.

Like i said, is it possible that your friend's defensive behavior is because she realizes that she was part of what caused your daughter's injury and is on the defensive because she does realize that it is partially her fault and doesn't know how to deal with the guilt? Or did you immediately accuse your friend of being the SOLE cause of your daughter's injury? Because as the parent being in the same room when it happened, legally the bulk of the responiblity would be on you as you were present, watching intently or not. Had you been out of the room and had asked your friend to keep an eye on your daughter that would have been a horse of a different color.

You really need to take a step back and look at this from your friends point of veiw, she probably does feel horrible, but if you immediately accused her of this horendous act then there is a chance that she jumped to teh defensive "well i told your daughter no, if she had just listened this wouldn't have happened" "Why were you taking care fo your daughter tantrums?" I can hear all of this coming out if i were accused like this. My sister has a daughter and if anything should happen to her, even an accident which this is, she would immediately blame whomever was around and refuse to speak to them for months and ban them from her daughter's life, yeah that includes me. My neice had fallen (she was learning to walk) and bumped her head, I was around and got blamed for this. So i know where your friend is coming from, maybe you don't.

Also this seems to be another case where you asked for advice but you don't like what your hearing. None of us are saying you're a bad parent or that your friend is a terrible person, we're just saying that blaming your friend and reacting like this isn't going to help your daughter.

[Tyger]

As I said in my initial post...I DIDN'T see this happen, I just know what I heard. I also thought I clarified that she wasn't catching her or keeping her from falling...She was picking her up AFTER she thought she had bumped her mouth. This was in no way a preventative measure. I know that accidents happen, I've said this as well! I am simply floored because she has shown no remorse for her part of this! A little sympathy for my two year old would be nice, and it's all I ask. I don't seriously expect her to pay the bills, it would just be nice if she seemed a little apologetic.

I totally agree. A little sympathy would be appropriate.

As Eminatic has stated, those that haven't been around a lot of children, or have kids themselves, don't really know how to appropriately handle kids and their frail bodies. I too have seen many parents picking up their kids, and hefting them way off their feet, by the arm/hand. Though many people KNOW they're not suppose to do this, they still do, and then others think it's OK, cuz they've seen others doing so. Most kids are ok with this sort of action, every once in a while. But, a slight twist, or wiggle to throw their bodies off balance, can do a lot of harm.

Let your friend know that, though you don't expect her to pay your daughter's medical bills (she may be trying to down-play it, so she won't feel any responsibility for it), you hold her responsible, since she did this, even if it was accidentally. And that you expect an apology at the very least, to your daughter given by her. If not, and she continues to act like it's no big deal, again, I would re-evaluate how important this person is to you. You CAN pick your friends, you know. Any person you can't trust around your child (that's physically capable of taking care of her, not like elderly people), shouldn't be around your kids to begin with.

[whitefang2002]

I will say this back 3 years ago a friend of mines daughter tripped and started to fall down the steps. Her father reached and could only grab her arm. If popped her elbow out. He is a parent and it still happened and he is a very good parent. Sometimes you react before think. Thing is if he wouldn't have grabbed her she could have been hurt even more severely.

They took her to the hospital and the othro. Come to find out she has weak elbow joints. The slightest pull can pop it right out and it is something she will have for the rest of her life. This is not something that was caused by her father. It was something she already had but is not something you are gonna test for.

This past summer she was playing on the monkey bars and being a normal 6 year old she was swinging and again popped one out. Just something that happens.

As far as the medical bills if you don't have insurance check with the hospital. Most states have what is called charity care. Depending upon income they will cover some or all of the hospital bill.

You friend was being a friend I do not feel it was malicious in any way. It doesn't matter whether you are a parent or not if could still happen. It was an accident and I feel it was nothing more than that.

When I was little I was falling and my mom got me by the arm...and out popped my elbow! Then it always kept happening doing everyday child play. And it was just weak elbow joints.

Then after having my daughter....she is almost 3 and almost a year ago i got her back from her grandmas with her complaining and crabby and saying her arm hurt. and she just sat there. i brought her in and all that good stuff..........to find out she also has weak elbow joints. it has happened 2 times at home that one came out just from her playing. i never touched her or was next to her when it happened. the doc. taught me how to put it back in. thankfully her's stay in when you pop it back and that she doesn't need a splint. accidents happen but i did kind of freak out when it happened the first time too.

[tkla]

I haven't said anything to my friend except that it was an accident and things happen. I'm trying not to be a total bitch about it, which is why I came on here to vent. I don't think there is a single chance I will be leaving her alone with my kids....EVER, or that she will be coming over much in the near future. Tyger is right...I feel no need to have someone around me or my children that I can't trust.

[square]

. . . is it possible that your friend's defensive behavior is because she realizes that she was part of what caused your daughter's injury and is on the defensive because she does realize that it is partially her fault and doesn't know how to deal with the guilt? . . .

That's what I'm thinking. I think a lot of people do this sort of thing, go into defensive mode, even convince themselves they didn't do anything wrong.

[Mikayla1]

I have a good friend whose daughter always 'dead weighted' when you held her hand, specifically if you were going somewhere she didn't want to go. For those of you who don't know what this is, it is when the child basically drops and dead weights so all the pressure is on their hand or wrist.

Well, she did this once while I was walking her into a store and I let her hand go, picked her up and carried her in. A little later we noticd her hand was blue. We took her to the ER, and the doctor called it 'nursemaid's elbow' - when the elbow dislocates when a child's arm gets pulled. He said it is really common.

I FELT TERRIBLE! I apologized a bizzzilion times, brought her ice cream, a new doll....and it was totally an accident.

I am sure what this boils down to is the lack of apology! If she/he had just shown concern, it would probably be all good, right? Perhaps just tell her that and see what she says.

[tkla]

I have a good friend whose daughter always 'dead weighted' when you held her hand, specifically if you were going somewhere she didn't want to go. For those of you who don't know what this is, it is when the child basically drops and dead weights so all the pressure is on their hand or wrist.

Well, she did this once while I was walking her into a store and I let her hand go, picked her up and carried her in. A little later we noticd her hand was blue. We took her to the ER, and the doctor called it 'nursemaid's elbow' - when the elbow dislocates when a child's arm gets pulled. He said it is really common.

I FELT TERRIBLE! I apologized a bizzzilion times, brought her ice cream, a new doll....and it was totally an accident.

I am sure what this boils down to is the lack of apology! If she/he had just shown concern, it would probably be all good, right? Perhaps just tell her that and see what she says.

Mikayla, you hit the nail right on the head!! I have two toddlers, I know that they get hurt, and a lot of it they cause themselves, but if you help them cause it, or cause it for them, you should at least acknowledge it!! Thank you for not making me feel like I'm freaking out for nothing!

[Amylynn920]

You need to sit and talk with your friend and tell them exactly what you've told us. Otherwise you will always harbor resentment. Accidents do happen, but there is an accountability factor here too.

Honestly, I see no reason to pick a child up and dangle by the hand. Would you pick a pet up by the paw and hand to some one else?

[tkla]

Well here is the update...I took daughter back to the orthopedic specialist today, we removed her splint and x rayed her elbow, everything came back great, she started moving her arm normally as soon as the splint was off, and she's acting as good as new. As long as she continues to use her arm normally we shouldn't have anymore issues. So YAY!!!!!!

I also talked my friend about it, and she has apologized for her part of the accident, so things seem to be going good for now.

[lil_librarian]

Yah for your daughter and good for talking it out with your friend.

[pappyld04]

I found out how easily this can happen when horseplaying with a girlfriend's son, maybe 11-12 when it happened. I gave chase as he was headed for the door and caught him by the wrist as he was slamming the door shut. Rather than the door slamming into myself, the momentum of his sudden snapped his arm at the elbow area. Of course there is no apology that really helps but the offer of one or in this case 20 or so, shows more than the actual apology. It's a terrible position all around but owning up and dealing with it is where many fall short.

Having no children of her own doesn't really cover this. It can happen to anyone. But I'd bet we all had/have family and friends that gives a basic parenting idea to us at those young ages. Not to mention our own families. I don't see malice in what happened but more of a not knowing how to deal with it.

Glad your girl is doing better and hopefully this will be something that you can help your friend with responsibilty and children!!!

[crossroads123]

GREAT!!!!!!!!!!! So glad everything worked out and especially thankful your daughter's alright.