Sex Vs Tenderness

[Sunday]

My wife makes a strong distinction between sex and "tenderness." It causes stress in our relationship and I wonder if anyone else experiences this kind of problem. I can spend an hour stroking her hair and touching her face - thinking about how wonderful she is, how much I love her, how lucky I am to have her - with no intention of having sex. Often the touching and talking are all she wants too and it works out. But it ruins the experience for her if the tenderness should result in sex. Even when I want sex I will spend an hour touching her and talking before moving on to something I would describe as sex. Somehow, it makes a big difference to her if I want sex as opposed to just wanting to be tender and intimate. She wants me to tell her up front whether I have sex on my mind or not. She says she can't relax if she thinks I'm after sex. I adore her and stroking her lovely skin is one of my favorite things to do. I can start out just touching her because that, to me, is an expression of love. But sometimes I get aroused. I mean, who wouldn't?? I have to suppress my desire for her because I know it will ruin things for her, but it is frustrating. She sees touching and intimacy as expressions of love, but sex is not. I don't get it. It's all the same experience for me, touching, tenderness, intimacy, sex - it all runs together. I don't know why it is separate for her. Do women, in general, separate physical intimacy from sex?

[lil_librarian]

I can not speak for women in general. My ex, would never touch me tenderly unless he wanted sex, it did not take long for me to clue in to this fact. Although there were other factors in the marriage that made for a bad marriage, this did NOT help. For me, as a woman, I need touched outside of sex. I need physical intimacy that stands alone. I need to feel that I am "loved" for who I am as a person and not as a sexual object. It sounds like you do that though. I would just up the amount of touching that does not result in sex.

[vanilla_bean]

Sunday, I remember kind of feeling like your wife does. It used to be that the only time my husband would get affectionate was when he wanted sex and, as a result, I would get tense whenever he touched me at all. I was resentful that a whole day would go by with no affection and then, when I was ready to crash from exhaustion, he would come on to me. (This doesn't exactly sound like your situation, but I'll just blabber on in just I say something that gives you some insight). We talked about it and he said, well, I didn't start off wanting sex, but once I started touching you.....

We are in such a different place now. Anytime he touches me now I think, "Oh good. I hope this leads to sex!" A lot of things happened to change my situation. I had to rework my whole attitude toward sex and it's place in my marriage. It used to be sort of a giving in or giving it up activity. Now it's a fun and intimate activity that I share with my husband and I completely participate in it with him. My marriage and, honestly, my whole life is better as a result.

Hope I've said something to help. Good luck!

[Sunday]

Try speaking (best) or writing to her something like this:

I understand that gentle, tender touch helps you to feel loved by me; it is something you need. Being close to you physically arouses me, often. I love you; when this happens I want you. It's not always my intention to have sex when we touch that way, but sometimes I can't help but become aroused. You are beautiful to me, and I want YOU, not just your body. That doesn't negate the tenderness I feel and want to show you, it's an extension of it. When I am inside of you, held there, warm, soft, safe, and wet, I feel an overwhelming sense of tenderness from you that I need to feel loved.

Crap. I'm a 58 year old guy and I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. That is SO IT!!

[Sunday]

Sunday, I remember kind of feeling like your wife does. It used to be that the only time my husband would get affectionate was when he wanted sex and, as a result, I would get tense whenever he touched me at all. I was resentful that a whole day would go by with no affection and then, when I was ready to crash from exhaustion, he would come on to me. (This doesn't exactly sound like your situation, but I'll just blabber on in just I say something that gives you some insight). We talked about it and he said, well, I didn't start off wanting sex, but once I started touching you.....

We are in such a different place now. Anytime he touches me now I think, "Oh good. I hope this leads to sex!" A lot of things happened to change my situation. I had to rework my whole attitude toward sex and it's place in my marriage. It used to be sort of a giving in or giving it up activity. Now it's a fun and intimate activity that I share with my husband and I completely participate in it with him. My marriage and, honestly, my whole life is better as a result.

Hope I've said something to help. Good luck!

You've been very helpful. Hopefully we will get to this point some day. Thank you.

[vanilla_bean]

Vanilla, I am intensely interested in the point (or points) that caused you to reach such enlightenment.

I will try to respond to this. It's kind of weird for me to go back to that place and I had to think about how I even got there. Bear with me for some background.

With the perspective of time, I can see that a lot of little things built up. My self-esteem had taken some hits and I bought into believeing that sex is for the young and beautiful. I was also really invested in being my version of "supermom". This didn't leave a lot of room for feeling very much like a sexual being. My lack of enthusiasm brought about frustration and even anger in my husband. The more angry he got, the more distance I wanted between us. Sex became a kind of power struggle.

A major turning point was when he expressed to me that this was causing him actual pain. He really put his heart on the table and I really listened. Causing him pain was not acceptable to me. I loved him but all this "stuff" had gotten in the way.

One of the first things that I had to do was accept that I was desirable in a sexual way. Maybe it's hard to understand for some people, but that was hard for me to do. I thought it was a ridiculous idea, but I had to let myself be seen that way. I still struggle with this from time to time. (Will I look silly in this lingerie? Do white thigh highs make my legs look chunky?)

I also had to stop being so uptight about what sex was and what sex was for. I came to think of sex as being FUN! That was something I had forgotten years ago. Now I am able to laugh in the bedroom. We almost always say after sex, "That was fun!" Toys, fantasies, even some porn are now welcome and enjoyed.

Hormones may have played a role too. That isn't easy to measure, but like a lot of women here, my sex drive suddenly went through the roof. Others have said, and I agree, it was like a switch going off or a flood gate opening.

OK, this was a lot of chatter. To summarize, I guess I had to realize the toll that my attitude was taking and see that it wasn't right. Then I had to start the scary process of seeing myself sexual again. It seemed like such a risk at the time, but I hate to think of where I would be now if this change hadn't happened.

If there is any question that I can answer, I will try.

[sass]

Thanks for sharing that VB - I know it must have been difficult. I think you hit on something a lot of us women face at one time or another - not really feeling sexy and desirable. For a long time, when I was young and a size 8, I felt sexy as hell. Now, less young and a "slightly" larger number is on the tag of my jeans, I have a hard time feeling wanted. I assumed for many years that when a man looked at me or touched me, it was for sex only, that he only saw a pussy because if he saw the whole me, he could not possibly find me desirable.

A couple of very special men, including the semi-infamous FWB I have posted about many times, helped me start to get past this. My current SO has taken it even further. I feel sexier and more attractive than ever and it has a lot to do with how he treats me. Much like Sunday discussed, there a many times when SO and I touch and caress and play without it ever leading to sex. Of course, there are also several times it does lead to sex. I don't think either of us really plan on sex-free caressing, it just kind of happens. This is all new to me, and I like it.

I guess I did all the rambling to say that how a woman feels about herself can have a lot to do with how she interprets her lover's actions. Sunday, if your wife is feeling less attractive or sees herself as less desirable, that could be part of the issues. Open, honest and frank discussions would be a good place to start. Make sure she knows that she sets your heart and mind on fire, not just your penis. Yes, she should probably already know this, but we women can "forget" those things from time to time.

[chloegirl]

Sunday, your description of the non-sexual touching and intimacy says alot of good but let me ask you just in case there may be another take here....when you do have sex, are you caring and generous making SURE you pleasure her and making sure that she does have a satisfying climax? Because I've also been where your wife is coming from and I can tell you that alot of it was repressed anger. I basically felt that hubby never put forth any real effort into giving either in or out of the bedroom. Every single time we had sex it was always the same thing, rush into it, no foreplay, all about him getting off and basically just expecting me to have gotten the same thing out of it and be satisfied....any attempts at trying to explain how this just wasn't working led to nothing. Made me feel like he didn't give a damn about my feelings at all. He'd walk up to me and grab my crotch out of nowhere with no pre-amble and thought that I was just supposed to melt into a puddle of desire right there and then....sorry, it doesn't work that way! Something simple like a nice long back rub would be heaven and if just once in awhile he would have done something like that without the ulterior motive of it leading to a quick jump it would have gone a long way. I too dived ino the "supermom" syndrom and kept as busy as possible as a shield. But years of living like that will take it's toll and like Vanilla said there came a point where I just decided, I can't change him or wait for him to change....I can only change myself and the way I look at it. Maybe the hormones kicked into high gear or whatever but that switch was turned, I let go of that anger, and embarked on a journey of seducing both him and myself into a totally different mindset. We've both come a long way with ups and downs along the way, but things are so much better now.....sure the "tenderness" is nice and there is some of that every day now, but the best times are when it gets down and dirty! Just another view for you. Good Luck!

[Mikayla1]

I think Iha, and the other posters, have made some great points and given some fantastic advice here. I definitely think that Iha is spot on with his idea of talking/writing her to tell her how you feel.

What I think this boils down to is, that many women do see a difference between sex and intimacy. Just as many men don't think that sex IS intimacy at all. There are those men who only touch, kiss, caress or otherwise pay any type of sexual attention to us because that road leads to sex. I think of the infamous, "can I give you a massage" situation - the massage lasts 2 minutes, the sex another 2 and that is it. Many men find it difficult to approach their partners in such a way without being aroused or thinking about sex - CAUSE MEN THINK ABOUT SEX A LOT - and it is natural and healthy. Whereas, many women need a lot - and I mean a LOT - of stimuation to start thinking sexually. This is not always the case, in my personal situation I don't need all the petting or the caressing to be aroused - but, since I view life as foreplay, I am already half way there.

I am not sure about your wife, but there are those women who do think of sex as a 'duty' or a 'chore' (much like VB was talking about) and don't see it as fun. These women can have a really hard time being sexual, as they don't truly let go enough to want to have sex. In many cases, these women have to totally work themselves up for sex - talk themselves into it, so to speak.

I think Iha is spot on with what he said. You love her, you are aroused by her whether or not you are touching her, and the tactile feel of her smooth skin or flaxen hair gets you going. Many women would be flattered, some see it as a burden to turn on a man and then have to 'do' something about it.

He saying you have to tell her before you touch her what you want or expect leads me to believe that she had to work up to sex. It makes me think that she can not just 'be' in the moment and let herself relax and enjoy - and have sex be an extension of that enjoyment when it happens. Some women can't just let it happen - they ahve to primp and clean and do whatever - so not knowing would make them uncomfortable. I am not sure where you wife fits in here.

The most important thing is that you are taking the time to search out answers. You love her, and you want to understand her. That is a beautiful expression of love - and I wish more men (and women) would do the same for their loved ones.

[ladylove]

There is so much I would love to say here, but a lot of it has been said one way or another. You can only hope that after a time your wife will equate love and tenderness with sex. Remember 4play starts the moment you open your eyes in the am and doesn't end just because you have sex. Good luck.

[Sunday]

Sunday, your description of the non-sexual touching and intimacy says alot of good but let me ask you just in case there may be another take here....when you do have sex, are you caring and generous making SURE you pleasure her and making sure that she does have a satisfying climax?

She has orgasms almost every time we have sex. All I can conclude is that she thinks me giving her oral until she cums is like me touching and being tender - it's a means to an end, namely me getting inside her. I believe this so much that a couple of times in the past year I've given her oral sex and multiple orgasms and then just held her until we went to sleep (it wasn't easy, believe me). I don't know if she got the message I was trying to send.

I don't want to sound like a saint here. It's not always about her. Not long ago we were on the beach and she asked, "What do you want to do this afternoon?" And I said, "I want to take you upstairs and use you and then take a nap." She smiled and jumped up and ran to the room. She didn't cum and we both knew she wouldn't, but she seemed really eager to do it. That was an exception, maybe one out of 10 times we have sex do I want it to be about me. What is so confusing to me is that she was ready to have sex when she knew it was all for me, but an hour of tenderness is ruined if it ends in sex. Come to think of it, maybe she liked the frankness?? I wish I understood women more.

[chloegirl]

What is so confusing to me is that she was ready to have sex when she knew it was all for me, but an hour of tenderness is ruined if it ends in sex. Come to think of it, maybe she liked the frankness?? I wish I understood women more.

Maybe that's it.....Maybe she compartmentalizes these 2 aspects (the madonna/whore syndrom) and for whatever reason is having a hard time letting one flow into the other. Sometimes a nice, tender "lovemaking" session is good, but sometimes whether she's at the point where she wants to admit it or not, she'd rather just have it be straight up hot and nasty sex. Could be she wants you to just be out front, dominant and aggressive about it at those times so she can just let herself go with the flow but not feel "guilty" for enjoying being a dirty girl.

[Sunday]

I’ve talked here a couple of weeks ago about my soon-to-be wife ( I called her my wife in the first post). She has been out of the country since February 9nd and she’s due back home this weekend. I am giving her a little homecoming to make sure she’s glad she came home. I hired a cleaning service to polish the whole damn house, did all the laundry, and I ordered 5 bouquets of flowers to put around the place. I’m going to wash the dogs and maybe even take a shower myself on the day she comes home.

Anyway, about 12 years ago (when I was 47) I met my then-wife in Paris after a long separation and I gave her a "homecoming." She was coming by train and it was going to be along ride. I knew she would be tired so I took her to dinner when she arrived and told her I was going to give her a bath and a massage later and let her get a good night’s sleep and tomorrow I was going to tie her to the bed and make her my sex slave all day. She was happy and intriqued – kind of giggled about it. Not sure how my fiancee would respond. I’m probably too horny to think straight, but I’m thinking of doing something like that.

Back in Paris, I didn’t have any neckties with me, and I remember we stole our napkins from the restaurant for the purpose. We laughed and teased each other over that. We were talking about what would happen if we got caught.

“Why are you taking our napkins?”

“So I can tie my wife up and fuck her.”

Hopefully he would understand.

God, sex was fun and uncomplicated then. We had so much fun.

When she woke up the next morning she was tied to the bed just like I promised. I started getting frisky with her and she said she had to pee, so I untied her from the bed, with the napkins still on her wrists, and I led her to the bathroom. She said, “Can’t I have any privacy?” and I told her “Not today.” I sat her on the toilet and ran some water in the tub and held her hands over her head with the napkin while she peed, then I sat her in the tub and washed her off. I tied her back to the bed and ravished her for three or four hours in as may ways as I could think of. We both got tired of it by the afternoon and we went out. It was Paris after all.

I just don’t know if anything like that would go over with my fiancee.

[chloegirl]

It would go over with me big time!!!!

Try it (the tying up part) and go slow and sensual with her at first making it all about pleasuring her since it seems this is the part you are worried about. Hopefully she will loosen up and enjoy it and you can progress from there. If she totally fights it, then you may have to decide if this is really the kind of woman you want to spend the rest of your life with and can you be satisfied like that. Best of luck to you!

[pappyld04]

Just holding her arms securely above her head may be a good indicator here. Some girls would freak out with an all out effort. You know better than anyone just how much trust is between the two of you, so you likely have an idea.

[ladylove]

I’ve talked here a couple of weeks ago about my soon-to-be wife ( I called her my wife in the first post). She has been out of the country since February 9nd and she’s due back home this weekend. I am giving her a little homecoming to make sure she’s glad she came home. I hired a cleaning service to polish the whole damn house, did all the laundry, and I ordered 5 bouquets of flowers to put around the place. I’m going to wash the dogs and maybe even take a shower myself on the day she comes home.

Anyway, about 12 years ago (when I was 47) I met my then-wife in Paris after a long separation and I gave her a "homecoming." She was coming by train and it was going to be along ride. I knew she would be tired so I took her to dinner when she arrived and told her I was going to give her a bath and a massage later and let her get a good night’s sleep and tomorrow I was going to tie her to the bed and make her my sex slave all day. She was happy and intriqued – kind of giggled about it. Not sure how my fiancee would respond. I’m probably too horny to think straight, but I’m thinking of doing something like that.

Back in Paris, I didn’t have any neckties with me, and I remember we stole our napkins from the restaurant for the purpose. We laughed and teased each other over that. We were talking about what would happen if we got caught.

“Why are you taking our napkins?”

“So I can tie my wife up and fuck her.”

Hopefully he would understand.

God, sex was fun and uncomplicated then. We had so much fun.

When she woke up the next morning she was tied to the bed just like I promised. I started getting frisky with her and she said she had to pee, so I untied her from the bed, with the napkins still on her wrists, and I led her to the bathroom. She said, “Can’t I have any privacy?” and I told her “Not today.” I sat her on the toilet and ran some water in the tub and held her hands over her head with the napkin while she peed, then I sat her in the tub and washed her off. I tied her back to the bed and ravished her for three or four hours in as may ways as I could think of. We both got tired of it by the afternoon and we went out. It was Paris after all.

I just don’t know if anything like that would go over with my fiancee.

I'm sure my own husband would have his doubts about my reaction to him tying me up. I would love it. I repeat... I would love it. Miss Conservative would relish in such lavish pleasures. Take a step out of the box, let her know or surprise her just give her the option any time she feels uncomfortable, give you the word and you'll stop. Then let us know how it went over.

[ladylove]

I'm sure my own husband would have his doubts about my reaction to him tying me up. I would love it. I repeat... I would love it. Miss Conservative would relish in such lavish pleasures. Take a step out of the box, let her know or surprise her just give her the option any time she feels uncomfortable, give you the word and you'll stop. Then let us know how it went over.

Sunday, how did it go?

[Sunday]

Sunday, how did it go?

Gosh, thanks for asking. It didn't go. She's been home for four days and we haven't had sex at all. Sex seems to be the last thing on her mind, there is always something more important, more urgent etc etc. I'm afraid fun, mutually enjoyable sex is one of the things I permanently lost when I lost my wife. It will never be the same. I try not to be angry at my new love, because there are a lot of good things about her and it's not her fault she is who she is. But I get depressed and resentful about it. And at times I miss my wife something awful.

[ManofHerdreams]

Gosh, thanks for asking. It didn't go. She's been home for four days and we haven't had sex at all. Sex seems to be the last thing on her mind, there is always something more important, more urgent etc etc. I'm afraid fun, mutually enjoyable sex is one of the things I permanently lost when I lost my wife. It will never be the same. I try not to be angry at my new love, because there are a lot of good things about her and it's not her fault she is who she is. But I get depressed and resentful about it. And at times I miss my wife something awful.

I'm sorry to hear that. Some women in this world are just that way. Don't ask me how I know.............

[ladylove]

Gosh, thanks for asking. It didn't go. She's been home for four days and we haven't had sex at all. Sex seems to be the last thing on her mind, there is always something more important, more urgent etc etc. I'm afraid fun, mutually enjoyable sex is one of the things I permanently lost when I lost my wife. It will never be the same. I try not to be angry at my new love, because there are a lot of good things about her and it's not her fault she is who she is. But I get depressed and resentful about it. And at times I miss my wife something awful.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Have you ever thought maybe you need more time to get over you late wife or perhaps this women is not the person for you. She may be your transition lady. Resentments and depressed feeling will only build; if you feel that way now it can and will only get worse. There are many many many bright, eligible women wanting, waiting, and looking for a wonderful man to create a future with. This isn't the end of the road by any stretch of the imagination. Don't settle, you may never have the same level relationship with another women as you did with your wife, but you can find a companion you have a high level of happiness with, without resentment and depressed feelings.

[sass]

I'm so sorry to hear that. Have you ever thought maybe you need more time to get over you late wife or perhaps this women is not the person for you. She may be your transition lady. Resentments and depressed feeling will only build; if you feel that way now it can and will only get worse. There are many many many bright, eligible women wanting, waiting, and looking for a wonderful man to create a future with. This isn't the end of the road by any stretch of the imagination. Don't settle, you may never have the same level relationship with another women as you did with your wife, but you can find a companion you have a high level of happiness with, without resentment and depressed feelings.

You took the words right out of my mouth - or I guess off my keyboard. I am no relationship expert, well at least not when it comes to successful ones, but I have been through enough of them to know that if something is bothering you, it will only get worse over time. Good luck Sunday.

[Sunday]

I'm so sorry to hear that. Have you ever thought maybe you need more time to get over you late wife or perhaps this women is not the person for you. She may be your transition lady. Resentments and depressed feeling will only build; if you feel that way now it can and will only get worse. There are many many many bright, eligible women wanting, waiting, and looking for a wonderful man to create a future with. This isn't the end of the road by any stretch of the imagination. Don't settle, you may never have the same level relationship with another women as you did with your wife, but you can find a companion you have a high level of happiness with, without resentment and depressed feelings.

Yeah. Probably not going to happen. TJ was 40 and I was 56. Now I'm 59 and my soon-to-be wife is 60. I think it may be primarily an age thing. I can't really expect a 60 year old to have the same interest as my wife did at 39. My stb wife is probably more interested in security than sex. The problem is I'm not yet "over the hill" sexually but she is, even though she's only 16 months older than I am.

[ladylove]

Yeah. Probably not going to happen. TJ was 40 and I was 56. Now I'm 59 and my soon-to-be wife is 60. I think it may be primarily an age thing. I can't really expect a 60 year old to have the same interest as my wife did at 39. My stb wife is probably more interested in security than sex. The problem is I'm not yet "over the hill" sexually but she is, even though she's only 16 months older than I am.

I get that, but maybe you need to look for a women in their 40's early 50's. Just think about what you are doing and don't make a mistake out of desperation. A life time is a long time no matter how long or short it is. Just think about what is really best for you and not what your obligated to.

[shoupja]

Oh lord we women are so weird sometimes. I am the same way. Most (not all) women need the tenderness to feel love(d). While we do see sex as a way to express love, tenderness is a way to bring 2 people emotionally closer.

Maybe while you are sitting and talking to her one night you could discuss options with her. Ask her if you'd like to preface your actions with a request like; "Honey, I'd love to show you how much I love you by JUST brushing your hair or giving you a massage (or whatever intimate act it is) tonight." Maybe she could ask you for what she wants.

I know it's often more fun when it's spontaneous but we really can't relax and enjoy a nice massage when the it requires the reward of sex at the end. Your wife wants to be loved without having to return the favor.