Men & Women And Today's Role

[ladylove]

well, putting aside the fact that word can EASILY get around whether you want it to or not, why should a woman even HAVE to worry about keeping the truth a secret, when its fine either way for men?

let me pose a hypothetical situation: what if two people performed the exact same action. now lets say the first person receives praise or acceptance from it. now, what if the second person receives harsh judgement, is shunned, etc while fully AWARE that the first person did not receive the same reaction. what if these two people encountered this situation several times a day, everyday? who do you think has the better odds of being more confident in life?

i've never met anyone who is truly unaffected by outside judgement.

E, I understand what your trying to say and agree with you for the most part. However, I'm really just trying to say; To hell with those who make you feel like shit about yourself. Persons who are judgmental of you and your actions may not be your true friends. Travel down the road that brings you fulfillment and happiness. Become the person you want, and along the way you'll meet those that will respect and like you for you. Your a young women with a long road ahead, surround yourself with positives.

[Guest eminatic]

i'm referring of course, to stripping and/or prostitution. and i've notice just as many men make these remarks as women, although i never said that either sex was responsible. i even notice it around here, everyone is encouraging of women to enjoy sex, find out what they like, etc. but for someone on the wrong side of the popularity line (like an unpopular celebrity, for simplicity's sake) and all those same ideas are turned into a weapon. but it's ok to insinuate that THEY (other women i.e. not in the "friends" circle) should be ashamed of sex, because we don't like them. personally i am insulted ANY time ANYONE throws around those types of insults, regardless of who it is directed at.

and i'm not saying the standard hasn't moved, its just barely moved an inch.

i do not "look for negatives" i just call it like i see it.

[Tyger]

if a woman has sex with too many guys is she put in a certain category? yes

if a woman has a certain occupation is she looked at in a negative way? yes

if a woman does not have kids by a certain age is she viewed in a certain way? yes

if a woman does not start a family or becomes a CEO or other demanding, high status/high paying profession does that carry a negative connotation? yes

what is the first thing people usually go for when they are trying to hit a woman where it hurts? call her a slut/whore etc. make her feel ashamed of enjoying sex.

i know many will be quick to chime in "well i don't view it that way" but when looking at society as a whole, things are still this way. but its like a "dirty secret" or bad word...something taboo we aren't supposed to mention so i'm not even gonna go there...

Em has a point here. Women get the short end of the stick in a lot of instances. I'm not one for chanting "Women get screwed out of everything" kind of person, however, realistically, I know that there have been times that, because I have breasts, I've been treated like a total fuckin' idiot. This has been the case for thousands of years. Women with intelligence were rarely taken seriously.

I got looked at like I was a freak, when, in my mid-20's, when asked when I was going to have children, I said, "Maybe never. I'm too selfish with my time." I wasn't insulting myself, or saying I didn't like kids, I just knew, at that point in my life, I wasn't ready for kids, or the responsibilities they entail. I was being realistic & honest. Many thought I was a freak because I didn't want to go forth and multiply!!!

Even NOW, with one child, I get asked all the time "So, when are you going to have another". Never, thank you very much. I am perfectly happy with the ONE honestly. I told hubby when we contemplated having a baby, that, in all likelihood, it'd be just ONE, and if he wasn't ok with that, there was the door (we were engaged at the time). He said he was fine with it, thinking that, when our child turned 3, I'd get the itch to have another one. If anything, DD turning 6 made me realize I enjoy going out, spending time with her, and hubby, or one or the other, and not have to drag 1000lbs of baby gear around!! I love my daughter, and wouldn't trade her for the world, but I want to spend my time with HER, hubby, and our pets now.

A few generations ago, I wouldn't have a choice. I'd be expected to have children, lots of them. My great-aunt loved kids, but never wanted them at all. So, to avoid having to go thru any of it, she chose to remain single, and died an "Old Maid". She was considered a crazy old lady, that just never found THE ONE. She CHOSE not too, and I loved her dearly!!

[mystofpric]

Yeah women get the short end of the stick, sure, we have to bleed for a week every month. Fine. But I believe that what i said was that these things are change, women are taking "traditionally male"jobs and roles and no one is looking at them like they are freaks. Everyone assumes I don't want kids (this isn't true but still assumed any way) and no one bats an eye at it. Tyger you and i are of a different generation and for me and my generation it isn't odd for women to say no to kids and marriage.

Em the reason women (and more actually men) are degraded for prostitution (whichis illegal in most states) and stripping isn't so much that they are expression their sexuality at all, it's the dirt and grime that is attached to such jobs. Strip clubs are supposed to be seedy and dirty, prositutation is well prositution. And neither job should be confused with an expression of sexuality. Like wise my mining shouldn't be confused with a love of rocks, it's just a job.

Yeah it sucks to be called a slut or a whore, been there done that, but ya know what? It really does go back to putting the power in the hands of the bully. If you know your not and you know that they are just trying to hurt you, why let them? The vagina monolugues have a bit called "Relcaiming Cunt" all about reclaiming a word that is so often used against us. Bitch when through a similar revolution. Why not help start it for whore and slut? Why give those words any power of you or others?

It really is all about attitude.

[Guest eminatic]

sorry but if "bitch" or "cunt" went through ANY type of "revolution" at all it has long since died and relapsed all before i ever noticed. :|

also, tyger you reminded me of something i notice ALOT. it isn't so much that these ideas are now being "accepted" but more that people just brush it off as "oh she's just young and naive and will come around later" it reminds me of how almost EVERY guy i've ever spoken to regards an attractive lesbian as "a waste of pussy" that "just hasn't had the right guy to give her a good fucking" and think that they will be the one to "convert" her and thus ignore when women state they have no interest in men and attempt to pursue them anyway its this condescending attitude of "oh that's cute but you don't really know what you're saying"

and no, prostitutes are not regarded as inferior due to the fact that the business is "seedy" and i NEVER said or implied that it was about an expression of sexuality. but people automatically judge someone who has been reduced to having to sell their body to make ends meat as being pathetic.

[Smile4Me]

Yeah women get the short end of the stick, sure, we have to bleed for a week every month. Fine. But I believe that what i said was that these things are change, women are taking "traditionally male"jobs and roles and no one is looking at them like they are freaks. Everyone assumes I don't want kids (this isn't true but still assumed any way) and no one bats an eye at it. Tyger you and i are of a different generation and for me and my generation it isn't odd for women to say no to kids and marriage.

Em the reason women (and more actually men) are degraded for prostitution (whichis illegal in most states) and stripping isn't so much that they are expression their sexuality at all, it's the dirt and grime that is attached to such jobs. Strip clubs are supposed to be seedy and dirty, prositutation is well prositution. And neither job should be confused with an expression of sexuality. Like wise my mining shouldn't be confused with a love of rocks, it's just a job.

Yeah it sucks to be called a slut or a whore, been there done that, but ya know what? It really does go back to putting the power in the hands of the bully. If you know your not and you know that they are just trying to hurt you, why let them? The vagina monolugues have a bit called "Relcaiming Cunt" all about reclaiming a word that is so often used against us. Bitch when through a similar revolution. Why not help start it for whore and slut? Why give those words any power of you or others?

It really is all about attitude.

Suzy, as much as I really don't want to throw in my two sense into this battle, I must admit, I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't think the harsh views surrounding prostitution and "exotic dancing" have anything to do with the woman's decision to express her sexuality and whether it's wrong or right, but more to do with the negative stereotypes surrounding those forms of "employment." The main stereotype I see with prostitution is the self-negation of dignity it entails.

Supposidely women who do not respect themselves enough to find a dignified job will turn to these types of jobs to earn quick money, at least that is what society has taught everyone to think. Whether this is correct or not, it really doesn't matter, because the fact is, MOST woman are never FORCED into selling her body for money. We contribute to our own well-being, and regardless of whether someone tries to take that right away, no one is ever completely helpless...they just decide to be subserviant, and in allowing yourself to be subservient, you are merely contributing to a stereotype that has enabled America to consider women THE WEAKER SEX.

I digress.

[mystofpric]

and no, prostitutes are not regarded as inferior due to the fact that the business is "seedy" and i NEVER said or implied that it was about an expression of sexuality. but people automatically judge someone who has been reduced to having to sell their body to make ends meat as being pathetic.

Well as far as bitch and cunt go, I think I said that bitch had gone througha revolution (how many women on here refer to themselves as a bitch, meaning a woman who stands up for herself, family, and beliefs?. Cunt I said was in process thanks to The Vigina Monologues.

Now I didn't say that you did say it was a for of express, though you did mention in the same breathe as being beaten down for their sexuality. I should also point out though then MALE strippers and Prositutes have it much worse, how many times have you looked at one of those goregous guys posing for the camera (check out my myspace to see what I mean, thanks girls!) and gone: "Too bad he's gay!" That would be the exact same attitude being used against men for the exact same thing your talking about with women.

Now I gotta say, you need to meet some new guys cause you seem to be (no offense) surrounded by ignorant douche bags the likes of which make the rednecks here seem cultured!

Oh an I should point out that saying that someone has been reduced to prositution or stripping is just as harsh and judgemental as calling them pathetic. I would have to believe that woman make a desicion to be or not to be a stripper or a hooker. No one held a gun to their heads and said here do this.

Suzy, as much as I really don't want to throw in my two sense into this battle, I must admit, I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't think the harsh views surrounding prostitution and "exotic dancing" have anything to do with the woman's decision to express her sexuality and whether it's wrong or right, but more to do with the negative stereotypes surrounding those forms of "employment." The main stereotype I see with prostitution is the self-negation of dignity it entails.

Supposidely women who do not respect themselves enough to find a dignified job will turn to these types of jobs to earn quick money, at least that is what society has taught everyone to think. Whether this is correct or not, it really doesn't matter, because the fact is, MOST woman are never FORCED into selling her body for money. We contribute to our own well-being, and regardless of whether someone tries to take that right away, no one is ever completely helpless...they just decide to be subserviant, and in allowing yourself to be subservient, you are merely contributing to a stereotype that has enabled America to consider women THE WEAKER SEX.

I digress.

No battle, at least not on my end, just a debate. And the lack f respect flows right on into men who do these jobs, usually more so as they are often assumed to be gay. Oh and WELL SAID!

[pappyld04]

That is a 2-way street ladies! I can't join the LPGA, or mos of your women only clubs but the same is not true in reverse. Women have sued to gain entry into men only clubs!

[mystofpric]

That is a 2-way street ladies! I can't join the LPGA, or mos of your women only clubs but the same is not true in reverse. Women have sued to gain entry into men only clubs!

That's my point! Discrimination based on sex goes both ways! Seriously, I think that men, in some respects, do have to work harder than women. I know for a fact that the odds of me being laid off are slimmer than for some of the guys (yeah part of that is that I make it a point to know how to do everything they will teach me) simplely because I am the only woman at my plant. I know that this plays a HUGE role in things. I know I actually make MORE than some of the guys and I do honestly believe i was given the raises over some people partially because of my gender, because it looks good on paper. The VAST majority of the reasons are because of my skills and attitudes, but some is because I'm a girl.

[ladylove]

That is a 2-way street ladies! I can't join the LPGA, or mos of your women only clubs but the same is not true in reverse. Women have sued to gain entry into men only clubs!

I agree with you pappy, some of the equality seeking women have gone too far. As Your last example, about clubs.

[synirr]

Honestly Em, I think you just need to find a new group of people to run with. There's not a single guy I know personally who would try to "convert" a lesbian or even think it's possible.

I grew up in a small town in east Texas, I know what it's like to be surrounded by small-minded backwards people, and I was a pessimist when I was younger too. Now I live in a city full of people I can relate to, and my entire outlook on life has changed. It can be better for you.

[Guest eminatic]

ok, first of all, there are A LOT of women and children who ARE indeed forced into prostitution (50,000 in the US. alone) not all are forced in illegal ways. while some are outright kidnapped/threatened/blackmailed many are coerced through fraud/circumstance pressure or other technically "legal" means. and this is exactly what i'm talking about. people are quick to judge and say "well they CHOSE to be that way, its their own fault." but even if they DID choose that profession, how does that make them less of a person? if a woman is sold into prostitution she is not a human being because she is a whore?

also, sorry but i've NEVER, EVER heard "bitch" used that way. i HAVE heard it used to describe a woman with too much money/power/control/opinion but it is ALWAYS in a NEGATIVE context (often preceded by the word "feminazi")

[pappyld04]

I'm all for equality but far too often it is used until it hampers them and then they cry foul! The way I see it is if you want what I have then by all means do what I do! On a drilling rig that will never happen, but every other job out there is open for the person with the guts and the knowledge to do it!

[pappyld04]

Em how many of that 50,000 are boys?

[mystofpric]

Em how many of that 50,000 are boys?

Further where did you get that number?

Em, hun, calm down, no one is attacking you here.

And as far as being forced into it goes, I don't believe that for a second, especially to cry circumstances. My mother was a single mother of 5 kids and she didn't go to into prositution. And yeah we were on welfare growing up, so we were pretty much dirt poor. Now is that to say that there isn't a seedy unground here in america where that happens? No, I'm sure there is. But I think that we are past the point of mobs running rampent n the street forcing women into prositution and on to stripper poles. And I should also point out, like pappy, you are forgetting that these "professions" are being filled by probably just as many men. And why arent you sticking up for them as well? That to me would be gender inequality at it's finest. And your are a woman ignoring the plight of men. How does that figure into your idea that women as less than men?

[Guest eminatic]

how many of that number are men? none. and by "circumstantial pressure" no, i do not simply mean women in low income brackets. i mean an outside force or third party deliberately putting pressure on an individuals circumstance for the purpose of coercion. yes, i am aware that there are male prostitutes, and i never denied your claim that there were. why am i not addressing it? because it does not happen on nearly the same scale as it does with women. equating a woman to prostitution/stripping is an insult that is OK in society on a HUGE scale. it is everywhere in a way that does not compare to male prostitution.

and you are either incredibly ignorant or in denial if you think that forced/coerced prostitution does not still run rampant. you just don't hear about it anymore. that does not mean it's not there. those numbers came from here here here and here

[Tyger]

Some words have changed, but, for the most part, they still carry the negative connotations.

Bitch is now broken down into "Babe In Total Control of Herself", and there are variences. But, still, if you're called a bitch, normally it's not meant in a good way.

I call myself a Bitch all the time, meaning the Babe one. But, I'm also not one to tolerate stuff, I'm assertive, no-nonsense kinda gal, that won't be walked on anymore, I've been called a bitch, and I tell them if I am a bitch because of all that, then so be it, and I will wear the badge with pride!! LOL So, I turn it around on people. Froggy's the same way, and we call each other Bitch with affection in mind.

I have another friend who calls me "The Old Bag (and she's 10 yrs older than I am), and I call her Water-Retaining Sea Cow. We mean it out of love.

It's really all how you take & react to words. Same with stigmas. Once people learn that they're hurtful words don't bug you, they usually stop (just like with bullies!). Just because one uses such words to insult you, doesn't mean you have to take it as such. After all, the name-callers are just suffering from a poor imagination/creativity anyway. If people have to result to name calling, I feel bad for them.

[Guest eminatic]

yeah i get the acronym and its cute as a joke and everything but it doesn't really translate to real life too well. i was trying more to get at the fact that mainstream media/society is allowed to use misogynistic insults in a way that they wouldn't DARE use other words. (the "n" word for example) when "bitch" or "whore" carry that kind of weight then maybe i'd consider the word truly "turned around"

[mystofpric]

and you are either incredibly ignorant or in denial if you think that forced/coerced prostitution does not still run rampant. you just don't hear about it anymore. that does not mean it's not there. those numbers came from here here here and here

See how everyone was refering to this as a war or battle? And I said no just a debate? Calling someone incredibly ignorant changes things froma debate to a battle. And as such I'm bowing out before any more mud slinging happens. But I will say this Em, I don't see the problems in the wolr dthat you do. My world isn't all peaches and cream but I don't go hunting for the worst in people. I hope one day you'll be able to see the silver lining.

I should also point out that this has strayed quite far from the original question, something tells me Prositution was not in Smile's mind when she asked if traditional gender roles have changed...

[Guest eminatic]

lol, please

Ignorant: Destitute of knowledge, either in general or with respect to a particular fact or subject

so lets try to string this together:

you made the claim that forced prostitution does not exist. that is false, not by opinion but by method of fact. therefore that false claim is either one of ignorance ie-you didn't know that your claim is untrue, OR denial- you did know but chose to ignore it.

i am not "attacking" you, i am pointing out that the claim is flat out wrong, but whether out of ignorance or denial i do not know.

[mystofpric]

lol, please

Ignorant: Destitute of knowledge, either in general or with respect to a particular fact or subject

so lets try to string this together:

you made the claim that forced prostitution does not exist. that is false, not by opinion but by method of fact. therefore that false claim is either one of ignorance ie-you didn't know that your claim is untrue, OR denial- you did know but chose to ignore it.

i am not "attacking" you, i am pointing out that the claim is flat out wrong, but whether out of ignorance or denial i do not know.

Not worth the response.

[Guest eminatic]

then why post a response?

[mystofpric]

then why post a response?

I had one, posted it rethought it. Contary to what you may believe I'm not all that ignorant.

[Guest eminatic]

once again, i implied that you may or may not be ignorant about one fact, not that i think you are ignorant in general.

[angelkisses98]

Em, I don't understand why everything out of your mouth is so hateful and negative. I can honestly say i can not remember a single post where you have had anything positive to contribute.