I'm Confused (marriage Trouble) Longish

[sam85]

Last Fall, after 12+ years of marriage (and 2 kids), my wife and I separated. For the previous 2+ years, I had been trying to get her to help me fix our problems and was told "it's all in your imagination". A major problem was our non-existant sex life and the things generated by our lack of intimacy (emotional and physical). We were more like co-workers than friends or lovers. I was told that I wanted "too much" (more than twice a month was alot). She had no enthusiasm no matter what I tried. I was reading this board constantly to find stuff to do (and buy) for "us". I even posted once asking for advice. Nothing was good enough. She was just a very closed person by nature. After I left, I would go "visit" the house and kids 4 to 5 times a week and try to get her to want to work on things, but she wouldn't even look at me. It was over as far as she was concerned because I left.

After about a month (feeling quite lonely), I got involved with a woman (I'll call her "L") who was amazingly compatible with me. She and I connected deeply on all the levels my wife and I hadn't (and better on the ones we had). The physical side of our relationship was like nothing I'd ever known. I felt like I'd finally met my equal as far as drive, enthusiasm, personal hygiene (may sound odd, but my wife didn't take care of herself and that was a major frustration) and desire. We couldn't get enough of each other physically. I've never felt something so "primal" and instinctive. I'd never been so satisfied! We had 3 great months together, but she lied to me a few times and she lost my trust. I still see her and talk to her occasionally, and the chemistry is still strong. She wants me back and says she would do anything to get me back. Not really an option, though. Can't do it without trust, and that ship sailed.

Back when we ("L" and I) were still involved, I told my wife because I didn't want her to find out second hand. When she found out, she suddenly wanted to try and fix our marriage. We had already started divorce mediation and were close to a court date. Long story short; when I parted from "L", I figured "why not try once more?".

After a few months of varying success (including couples therapy), I find that I do love her, but I am not excited by her. The connection/contentment I felt with "L" just towers over anything my wife and I seem to generate. While she is now trying to change, she is extremely resistant because she was happy with the old life. I find myself not very attracted to her at all. She takes a bit better care of herself (still not enough hygienically), dresses a little nicer, but still has very little sex drive or enthusiasm. She's not very feminine or seductive, and feels no desire to please me physically or connect emotionally. She still gets angry with me when I try to communicate with her about my needs even though I do it as the therapist tells us to. I feel like I have to choose between being with my kids and financial security, but no real meaningful connection; or going through with the divorce in the hopes of finding something more fulfilling. We get along fine, but all we do is "get along". There's no spark. Then I'll have a memory of "L" and just miss the way that "connection" felt.

Why can't there be both "get along" and "connection"? Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for "listening".

[thurisas]

Welcome to the site...and wow, that's quite a bit to get off your chest there. Down to your basic question though, the primal one, so to speak. If there is no chemistry, there is no point. The way I see it, you've come down to one of two scenarios. You either like your wife but don't really love her or, you love your wife but don't really like her and it sounds she may be in the same boat. Either way you cut it, you have to find a way to do both or you're going to continue to be miserable. So I guess I'm saying yes, it is either/or but who wants to live in a relationship where there is no chemistry? I should have to say that choice for me would be a no-brainer.

That being said, your situation sounds much like one my wife and I were in a while back. There was no sex, there was no talking about sex, there was no talking about any of the problems we had. It took us starting to pull very much apart before anything changed. It has to be a decision on both people's part in order to make a relationship work. Once that decision is made and is stuck to, things start to change. Soon, we were doing more to compromise with each other and our sex lives increased exponentially. The key thing here is that we both wanted to change. In your case, it sounds like your wife is reluctant at best. That is why I said my decision were I in your shoes would be a no brainer. I'm sure others will have other things to say so I'll leave it at that for now.

Thurisas

[Tyger]

Now that you've experienced something other than what you have been dealing with, you're thirsting for more. There is NOTHING wrong with that. You & your wife, sadly, don't seem to be compatible now.

She's doing a little too little too late. She should get kuddos for trying, but, not until she found out that there was actually someone else, did she really give 2 craps about your relationship. Someone was moving in on what she considers her "turf", and so she wants to mark you as HERS? Talk about confusing! If she seems like she wants to go back to the way things were~dull...then inevidably, it will.

Best to part friends, especially for the children's sakes, and go your seperate ways as lovers. You will be in each other's lives because of your children, but, seperating as amicably as possible is best all around. But, if you sit down and think about it, you will probably see that you may love her as the mother of your children, and respect her for it, however, finding things that you still don't find attractive anymore.....it's like you're trying to find a reason to leave. That, and the chemistry is gone. Once gone, you really can't get it back.

Going back to her was a mistake, IMO. You wanted to try and patch things up. But, frankly, the way I see it, it set things back. There has to be a 100% effort on both parties. She isn't trying, and you don't really seem interested in truly fixing things. I'm not being insulting, just stating that niether of you seem to be willing to put forth a lot of effort. And, if not, why bother? Relationships really need to be worked on and improved constantly.

Holding each other back like this isn't healthy for either of you, or the kids. Your kids are probably thrilled to have you back in the house with Mommy, but, trust me, they will survive. And plus, it's also holding them back emotionally. And, I'm sure it's confusing as well.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. I'm sure that you will find someone out there again to love, trust, and make love too. Take your time, date, have fun, see what's out there. The best kind of man and Daddy is a happy one!

[Mikayla1]

WOW...you have a lot on your mind there Sam!

Of course she wanted you back after she found out you had a lover - it is the quintessential "I don't want him, but no one else can have him either" situation. She probably assumed that you would separate and soon after realize that there was no one better - but there ALWAYS can be someone better, different or what not when you have an unenthusiastic partner!

The problem with her "effort" is that it is indeed too little too late, and she is half-assing the effort. People can and do change - lots of things in their lives - but if she is innately not a sexual person - then she will have a hard to impossible time fixing this inside herself.

You have mentioned her "hygenic" issues - is this a matter of not showering, putting on make-up or having odor "down there?" The reason I ask is, many women who have very low self esteem have issues with maintaining a groomed look. They barely put on make-up (what's the point?) - they barely shower (why bother) and they sure do not "groom" their pussy (who cares about that?) - so they end up looking lazy, pathetic and embarrassing. Has she ever taken pride in her appearance?

I am afraid I have to agree with the other posters here - I think you can love someone - especially someone who you have kids with- but if you have a deep resentment and indeed, physical turn-off for this person - it may never come back. I am of the thought of marriage is for better or for worse, but NOT forever and ever if your partner does nothing to help. You have children to consider here - the best thing a father can do for his children is love their mother and have a happy, healthy life - including sex life. The same goes for a Mommy.

For your own benefit, as well as that of your children, consider making this separation permanent. There are other women out there like "L" - I guarantee it!

[sam85]

Thanks folks. I appreciate the responses.

I haven't moved back in since I first left just because I wasn't sure it would work and didn't want to confuse the kids more. They both had real good school years despite the change of me leaving and have adapted to seeing me "the new" way they do. I'm still VERY involved with their school work (and lives in general).

About the grooming issues. I was made to feel unreasonable and called "Felix" (you know, the neat freak on the "Odd Couple" TV show) for years because there were/are things that always bothered me. I work out, eat right, shower twice a day when I work out, groom down there (as well as shave most lower body hair because I'm an avid cyclist) and wear decent clothes and cologne. I have all my teeth and get them cleaned regularly as well as use mints and gum. I eat onions sparingly if at all. In short, I'm not asking for anything I don't already do. All the things Mikayla touched on are issues. She now wears a bit more make-up, does shower more (though not daily), and has trimmed down there a bit. My biggest issues are her "odor" and her lack of enthusiasm/responsiveness/initiation. The odor thing can cause me to go limp almost instantaneously. I hate to liken it to something out of respect to her, but I know it ain't right. I don't look forward to touching or licking down there at all (but I do and do it enthusiastically to try and jump start her). I don't crave her physically on any level. Other married people tell me that's how it is, but I'm a very physical person and can't just shut it off anymore. After my experience with "L", it's even worse. "L" kept things in order. She had her own scent (that absolutely drove me to almost painful engorgement ), but not an "odor". I couldn't wait to put my tongue on her ANYWHERE because I knew things were taken care of. In the course of an hour or so, we would bring each other to 3 or 4 orgasms each in pretty much a different way each time (ie: oral, hands, insertion etc.). Now, in the same amount of time with the wife, one each ("conventionally") is the standard (and leaves me unsatisfied, thinking of how much I miss "L" in that way). We've got another month of therapy left and these are the issues I'm pushing. I don't know what more to do, but I need to know all possible fixes have been attempted before I can leave permanently. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but my family and friends all tell me I'm wrong to "throw everything away" because of my intimacy needs (physical and all related emotional).

UPDATE: As I was typing, Howard answered (thanks to you as well), so I feel obliged to reply.

The kids are 9 and 7. My 7 year old is handicapped, which adds to my guilt issues about leaving and could have been the precipitating event in my wife's life, although she's always been emotionally detatched and not sexual. We got together when I was 21 and she was 29. I had only been in one other relationship in my life. She is a great partner if chemistry isn't needed. We had some at one point (I think), though our physical relationship was always lacking and I substituted with work and riding my bike. You can't want sex after 80 miles in the mountains of Maine (WRONG!). I thought it would "fix itself". My only other serious relationship was pretty physical. One thing my therapy has brought out is that I am a "pleaser and peacekeeper" and have compromised my needs and wants for many years in the hopes of her reciprocation. Make any sense?

[Tyger]

That was a great story Howard, and probably a bit true to Sam's life too.

It also shows that there needs to be a realistic view of relationships. Sam, you say you shower everyday, twice a day, probably due to all of your workouts. Did you give your wife the opportunity to do so as well? Did you tell her to go and have a nice, long,hot shower/bath while you watched the kids on a regular basis, not just once in a while? Did you respectfully and caringly ask her about the odor *down there*? There could be a medical reason for it? If you just shut up and took it, then that issue was never really addressed.

Some women get a bit resentful that they're always the ones having to deal with the kids, housework, bills, and shopping. Never really getting ANY time for themselves. And, no, I don't really consider going grocery shopping for the house, time to yourself either. Some well-desereved ME time. Going out with friends, shopping for herself, going for a walk by yourself, THOSE are things that let you have some ME time. Everyone needs some ME time. I know that that's one thing MY husband needs to learn, and I keep trying to explain that to him.

Especially where you have a physically challenged child, she may be tired, emotionally worn out, and depressed. Now, I'm not blaming you entirely here. Please don't take it that way. But, there needs to be a realistic view on what can be given as well as taken. You were able to pursue your hobbies (and mountain biking is not only expensive, but time consuming), was she allowed the same luxury?

As Howard's friend's ex wife learned, she had to accept and place blame where it truly belonged in the relationship. It's sometimes a hard lesson to learn, but one worth learning.

These are lessons that should be learned, and hopefully in the next relationship, those mistakes won't be repeated on both of your parts.

[sam85]

Tyger,

I give her more time to herself than I get, which is something considering I work about 50 hours a week. I make sure I am available on a regular basis (4 to 5 times a week for at least a couple of hours to the whole day) even not living there to give her time away from the kids. I also have made our life so that she can work as little as she wants (if at all). I am involved with our son's programs as much as she is. He doesn't require alot of extra attention throughout the day, but I am "there" more than most Dads.

I also try to get her to play in the shower or tub, but sex isn't on her mind until bedtime (unlike me). Then it's "I'm too tired for a shower". The issues "down there" aren't medical I don't think. She's a nurse and should be aware of that stuff. Menopause occurred to me, but she's 44 and in pretty decent shape. She doesn't think menopause is an issue, and I tend to believe her because this mis-match in drive has been around for quite awhile.

I've made a point of getting all my "issues" out in the open since last fall, so we have talked about ALL this stuff. She has told me that she shouldn't have to change because she didn't have a problem. She says I provided everything she needed and then some and all she wanted was for me to be happy. What she doesn't understand is that her interaction with me has alot to do with my happiness. She NEVER initiates sex and complains if I try to flirt and play with her before the evening hours. She is hesitant to do the most basic things that I like (oral, hands, anything different). She doesn't get any satisfaction from pleasing me (I find it a HUGE turn-on when I know I'm "pushing the right buttons" for her or any partner). She is not very responsive no matter what and says that's just how she is (which is true from my experience). I try to tell her to relax and let go and let me take care of all her needs, but she seems so inhibited and closed and unenthusiastic. I feel like I just blend into the background and it makes me feel unwanted and undesirable and unreasonable for wanting more. Now that she is making a small effort, I feel guilty because the years of suppressed feelings have taken their toll and I feel like it's my fault that I can't just accept the effort and compromise again. This therapy is my last hope (if there is any).

[Tyger]

That's great that you did all of that. A lot of men don't think "hey, I just had time for myself, I bet my wife would like some time for her too". Hence, why I asked those questions.

I must then, go back to what I had originally said and say that it just sounds like the 2 of you grew apart. It's sad that a marriage fails, but they do. And, if there are only half-efforts on one or either party's side, then any reconcilliation getting back together really won't succeed.

Good luck to you and your wife. I hope that things are able to move forward in a more positive manner.

[Deveninny]

Sam, I too tried to reconcile with my sons mother. She had changed to the extreme of having me "shave" her...which I didn't mind, yet found it erotic...whereas she found it relaxing...and usually fell asleep. I tried talking to her about the exact same things you had...appearance, cleanliness and so on. I moved out when my son was 3 yrs old...I just couldn't take it. I moved back in to support her, as she was not able to pay the bills on a single income. I told her upon moving back in, I would require the couch to be me bed. I would not treat her as I had in the past. We lived for 2.5 yrs as room-mates...until I met my current S.O. After dating my current for 7 months, I found it unbearable to live there with her selfishness. I moved out...and all the while still feel a tiny bit of guilt, for my sons sake only. I miss him terribly, yet I see him everyday and usually every other weekend. Simply not being there when he wakes up in the morning and putting him in bed, kills me. Yet I have found a woman who brought so much into my life...I would never abandon her.

As for your situation, try dating the "other" woman again...but without any LTR expectations. That way your heart will remain guarded and she will eventually either prove herself to be worthy of your love or not.

Just my 2 cents...

Keith

[Mikayla1]

I have to jump on the "you two grew apart" bandwagon here. It is very common that people change in a relationship - and it is also very common that people refuse to see that their changes have hurt their partner. She says she isn't the one with the problem - she is unwilling to even bend in the slightest to adapt to what you would like. She seems irrational in her explanations and her ability to understand - whereas, you seem to be logical and patient.

It is always hard when kids are involved, but as I said before, staying when you are miserable is far worse for everyone involved - trust me!

Interestingly enough, just because she is a RN does not mean she knows about personal cleanliness. I have had many a nurse in my day that smelled like BO or a colostomy bag - so knowing better doesn't mean doing better in all cases.

I think you have a woman who does not like sex. Period. IF everything you say is true - and we take every poster on their word here - then I do not see you getting what you want, desire and deserve here. Pull the plug Dr. Kavorkian, this relationship is brain dead!

[ToyQueen]

This is not an excuse, but I have to say this much. Sometimes nurses are around so many disgusting smells that we kind of get used to it. We don't realize that we smell because the odors we are constantly walking through are so much worse. Sometimes I think that our olfactory glands are damaged. It makes me personally shower more often, but there are nurses who truly can't tell that they smell.

Sam, what about telling her that you will watch the boys while she showers. Maybe run her a nice bubble bath and put some relaxing music on in the bathroom. Then it isn't just another chore she has to do.

[sam85]

Toy Queen,

My wife has mentioned the same exact thing as far as her sense of smell goes. Apparently it's not that uncommon in your profession. She seems to be trying to keep her awareness up.

Deven,

I can't date the other one because she is a compulsive liar with tons of baggage from previous relationships that cause her to be very manipulative and capricious (and a cheater). I like stability. She ain't it.

All,

Thanks for the replies. I'm trying to keep an open mind and use this months therapy as constructively as possible. We'll see where it goes.

[alixorn83]

I have to chime in here from the other side as it were:

My ma and daddy divoriced when I was three (and my daddy was nearly the same age as you BTW) and I have mild to medium CP and a learning disablity and am an only child.

Just a few years ago my daddy told me the reason for the dirvorce: it was the fact that she did not want to have sex anymore. Her family had tuaght her that sex was only for making babies, and she was not suppose to 'like' it. So my daddy left.

I really really REALLY wish they had gone to someone to talk about their troubles rather than just getting a divorce right off the bat...

Whenever I see them together, even now that they are 60 and 63, I can tell that they still love each other other on a deeper level (that has been faded with time and some memory lost) and it is not just wishfull thinking...

I think if my ma and daddy had stayed together I would be much more emotionally balanced...

After daddy left my ma never once dated, wore make up, or really took care of herself...She spent nearly all day in bed, and the house where I grew up untill I was nineteen was so messy I could never have friends over and had to lie becuase I was afaid ma would get into trouble. I was never tuaght how to date, wear make up, or take baths often, and spent nearly all of my school life smelling bad becuase of our house and the fact that I had to go to my late grandma's house if I wanted to take a bath once a week...

It may sound like something out of a book but it is all true. Now that I am on my own I am still messy (but not to the level of my ma) becuase I was never tuaght to pick up things, and I have to force myself to take baths becuase it just feels odd being clean, and I have no clue when it comes to dating at all...

Please, please please..If there is any hope at all don't let your children be raised by depression (so to speak) over the issue of sex. I know to guys it is supose to be the be all and end all and 'oh well we don't click anymore, time to move on' thing, but please... get good honest help about it on both of your parts before you go to the point of no return and don't let just replies on a forum decide the future...It could be like my childhood and I would not wish that on anyone ever.

[me4now]

Everyone has given Great advice but you have to finally come to an conclusion if this is what you really want to keep doing or continue the Therapy for yourself, so that you dont get depress and move on so that you dont feel like you have not given you 100% and then some. As for your children just love them the way you have always and let them know you are always there for them, just in case your marriage dont make it (I'm not saying it wont) you have the tools for Therapy and your children to get you through.

Sometimes we know what needs to be done but our Hearts are so big and warm we just do what ever we can, but we continue hurting so give it a really good thought and once you do that look over your marriage and if you cant find not one good reason for you to continue then move on. When a person like your wife has a good then she dont want you but she dont want NOBODY else with you either and that is selfish.

I truly wish you the best