Virgins & Rabbits

[ESichette]

My best friend has a rabbit and raves about it. I'm a virgin and haven't been able to climax with a clitoral vibrator, so I've been thinking about purchasing the Ultimate Pearl Rabbitt. They say it's for beginner, but will it be ok for my beginner status? Any Ideas?

[Tyger]

Well, Rabbit toys ARE great, and there are several on the site here. Many have reviews with them by our Review Team, explaining how they worked for them. Rabbit toys can be a bit expensive. But, for the pleasure they bring, as well as the power and action a lot of them have, they are definitely worth investing in, IMO

However, you are a virgin, and, a Rabbit has a part that goes into your vagina, which most would tear your hymen. AKA "pop your cherry", rendering you NOT a virgin.

There was a lengthy debate on here a while ago, as to whether or not tearing the hymen with a toy, and not a man's penis, would truly mean you're not a virgin anymore. Personally, once the hymen is torn, it's gone for good, IMhO. So, you are not a virgin.

If that doesn't bother you, by all means, go and find a rabbit toy! They really are great!

I haven't personally used the Ultimate Pearl Beaded Rabbit, but it is a bit smaller in diameter than "regular" ones, so it would be good. However, there will be some pain from your hymen tearing at first, and there may be a little blood from it. It may be uncomfortable the first couple of times anything is inserted up inside of you, and will take getting use too, but it will happen.

[ESichette]

Thanks Tyger! Your comments for the other member's post has helped me a lot. I've heard that the first time for girls is awful, so I thought with the help of a Rabbit it wouldn't be so bad the first time I'm with a guy. Does this make sense?

[Tyger]

It does make sense. But, when you look back, do you want to remember giving your "virginity" up to a toy, or a real live man, that, if you choose the right one, would make it as pleasant as possible. A man that truly cares for you and your pleasure will really try hard to make it as comfortable as possible. It doesn't hurt that bad, honest. Just a tad. And, it does go away rather quickly.

If you do it, since you can feel and control the pain a bit more, you may be a bit more hesitant, and you may not fully tear it down, tear it a little, and that may hurt more than the full "popping". I hope that makes sense.

[ESichette]

It made a world of sense and helped a lot. Thank you!!!!!

[Mikayla1]

I would like to weigh in here a bit.

First, I am going to concentrate on what you said about NOT being able to climax with a clitoral vibrator. I find this unusual and think that perhaps you should spend a little time getting aquainted with your body. I have an article in the sex ed section on "Getting the Big O" and I think you should read it. It may help you reconnect with your body or sensuality. Since most women can't climax without clitoral stim - or prefer to climax ONLY with clitoral stim - I would ask you to try and accomplish this first.

Since it is my opinion, like Tyger's, that givng of yourself to a TOY seems to take away from what you would be giving yourself with a man, I would suggest staying away from the inserting toys. While a Rabbit is a wonderful toy - most duals are - I would still suggest getting the clitoral o first.

Many women do find their most intense orgasms are with a combination of insertion and clitora stim - but a combination of both. They still require the clitoral stim to climax. So, try to go step one first, then step 2 when you are ready NOT to be a virgin.

Also, if I may suggest, I think that the pain associated with sex for the first time is SOOOOOO not as bad as people think or make it out to be. If you have a sensitive, caring partner and are in touch with your body and feelings, it will be a wonderful, albeit uncomfortable, experience!

[Tyger]

From what I can remember, since it's been a loooooooooooooooong time since I lost my virginity, I would compare the pain to something minor like getting your ears pierced, but not with all of that aftercare! It's quick, and over with in a jiffy.

[elizabeth]

It does make sense. But, when you look back, do you want to remember giving your "virginity" up to a toy, or a real live man, that, if you choose the right one, would make it as pleasant as possible. A man that truly cares for you and your pleasure will really try hard to make it as comfortable as possible. It doesn't hurt that bad, honest. Just a tad. And, it does go away rather quickly.

If you do it, since you can feel and control the pain a bit more, you may be a bit more hesitant, and you may not fully tear it down, tear it a little, and that may hurt more than the full "popping". I hope that makes sense.

I'm going to completely disagree with what Tyger said here. Tearing your hymen doesn't make you "not" a virgin. Many women don't have a significant hymen, or they lose it during normal activities in their youth. I consider this an extremely old fashioned notion, and a dangerous one - the sort that leads people to chastising women the morning after their wedding night if there is no blood on the sheets. Masturbation shouldn't be seen as a threat to your virginity, whether it involves penetration or not. Learning to explore your body, finding out what you do and don't enjoy, will make your sex life with your future partners better. The first time you have penetrative sex with another person is going to be intimate, and special, regardless of whether or not you have used insertable toys in the past. I personally, wish I had stretched my hymen more before I lost my virginity because I found it excruciatingly painful, and I bled like a stuck pig. I had used insertable toys, and it still hurt. I would have preferred my first time with another person to be solely pleasurable, instead of having to deal with pain on top of the frightening nature of the intimacy. Sex should be something you do with someone you care about, and it should be something you enjoy. It should not be scary or painful (unless you like pain), and it should not have weird cultural baggage attached to it where you feel impure if a man doesn't rip you open enough so that you bleed on the sheets. There are places where women have been stoned for the lack of visible evidence of virginity, even when no man has ever touched them. Lets not encourage that mindset here.

[elizabeth]

Also, a biology lesson:

Not every woman has the same type of hymen. In some women, the entrance to the vagina is mostly, or completely, unobstructed, in others a condition called "imperforate hymen" can block the entire entrance so that not even menstrual blood can escape. There are, of course, variations in between.

Similarly the concept of the hymen being "popped" is a misnomer. In an ideal world, the hymen is stretched so that there is very little pain on penetration. Sometimes tearing can also occur, but it has to do with the flexibility and stretchiness of the tissue. Every woman's body is different, and so will be their experiences with sex and penetration.

Here are a couple links from Scarleteen, one of the top sex education resources available for young women.

http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advice/i...cking_my_orgasm

http://www.scarleteen.com/article/politics...ews_hanne_blank

[texasowl]

I would like to weigh in here a bit.

First, I am going to concentrate on what you said about NOT being able to climax with a clitoral vibrator. I find this unusual and think that perhaps you should spend a little time getting aquainted with your body. I have an article in the sex ed section on "Getting the Big O" and I think you should read it. It may help you reconnect with your body or sensuality. Since most women can't climax without clitoral stim - or prefer to climax ONLY with clitoral stim - I would ask you to try and accomplish this first.

I would just like to say that I must be one of those odd women. I really don't have straight clitoral orgasms. I don't even like much stimulation there at all. It gets to be too much for me, and isn't as fun. I much prefer insertion over all other things. So GatorbaitES, don't feel like you are the only one out there! I wish you luck in your explorations.

A virgin, defined in the MW dictionary, is someone who has never had sexual intercourse. Masturbation, even with penetration, does not take away your virginity. You still haven't had intercourse since that requires at least another person. If you are concerned about pain, or how it is going to be the first time in regards to your hymen then perhaps doing some experimenting on your own will help you get over any nerves or fear. I agree with Elizabeth's post here too - I wish I had been able to handle my first penetration on my own!

[Mikayla1]

I think we really have to think about what our personal definition of virginity is. In dictionary terms, sure, having sexual intercourse. In some cultures, it is not bleeding or having an intact hymen during the first intercourse. For other people, any sexual contact - especially that down low - renders you a non-virgin!

While I was not concerned with being a virgin until marriage or all of that, when I was younger I would have considered oral sex and fingering still keeping me a virgin. I wouldn't, however, have found that insertion of an object to be maintaining my virginity. That is MY opinion!

I do agree that the cultural expectation of virginity is ridiculous. A woman should be able to choose to whom (or what) she looses her virginity too. I also think that sex for the first time does NOT have to be painful. My first time was uncomfortable, but not painful. Some of my girlfriends reported almost no pain. It is different for everyone, and the mindset of breaking the hymen ahead of time so you have a more pleasurable first time seems odd to me. Sex is an intimate experience - it is not so intimate with a toy. Part of that personal connection is giving that first time to the man. It is something you will always remember - no matter how it came about.

Now, keeping with what Elizabeth has stated, being in touch with your body IS a good thing to have in future relationships. Knowing how your body reacts and how you like to be pleasured and touched puts you so far ahead of many women. I also do not necessarily think that being familiar with sex toys makes you that much more prepared. I think you can be sexually aware without having penetration.

I do not hold judgement against those women who choose to do so - that is their prioity, but for me, it was not an option.

I, like many girls, explored my body with my fingers, the water faucet, the jet in my pool, etc. What I did not do was insert anything into my vagina. For me, that seemed extreme and not the way I wanted to have "sex" for the first time. Now that I am older, I still have the same opinion - I guess I am sort of old-fashioned that way. I think that girls today seem to rush everything - especially sex - and many are totally uneducated about sex and pregnancy and all of that.

As for the clitoral orgasm thing - it doesn't make any person "odd" if they can only orgasm clitorally or with penetration. The fact is, every woman is built a little different. The clitoris is a magical thing - in some women it is out there and easy to stimulate, in others it is a bit inverted, making penetration easier to stimulate. The same is true with the G-Spot.

However, statistically, 80-85% of ALL women need that clitoral stimulation to climax. So, if you are one of the 20-15% that doesn't then you are lucky. It took me years and years to learn to climax vaginally - and I still have greater success with clitoral stim. I have the best orgasms when I have clitoral, vaginal and anal stimulation.

All women are different, we all have likes and dislikes, our preferences are varied! The best thing any woman can do for her sex life is to follow her bliss, do what feels right to her and NOT make excuses for it. If this poster or any other poster wants to explore the world of insertable sex toys before having sex with a partner - then do it! Don't feel guilty, don't make excuses and do what you want with YOUR body! The hardest thing to overcome for many young women and men is the guilt or shame associated with sexual pleasure. This may be a religious stigma or just something passed down from the family - but my hope is that the younger people today will become more sexually educated! This includes STD and pregnancy information as well as how to pleasure and be pleasured. In a time when the internet has every possible place to obtain information, there is no longer a reason for ignorance on any level.

[12GAUGE]

My best friend has a rabbit and raves about it. I'm a virgin and haven't been able to climax with a clitoral vibrator, so I've been thinking about purchasing the Ultimate Pearl Rabbitt. They say it's for beginner, but will it be ok for my beginner status? Any Ideas?

I don't mean to be rude but I'd bet once you're devirginized well you'll be making it like a rabbit. Peace 12G

[elizabeth]

While I was not concerned with being a virgin until marriage or all of that, when I was younger I would have considered oral sex and fingering still keeping me a virgin. I wouldn't, however, have found that insertion of an object to be maintaining my virginity. That is MY opinion!

I just can't understand the mindset where someone else sticking their tongue or fingers in your vagina somehow keeps you "purer" than sticking an object in your vagina (do tampons count? Are you going to tell all the girls who use them for menstrual control that they've sacrificed something of value to avoid the mess of pads? How about the environmentally responsible ones who use menstrual cups? Is it the size of the object? Or is it the fact that it's being used for pleasure, and if it's the second then "fingering" should definitely be a virginity destroyer as well). Especially from the perspective of a safer sex educator where the first two could, potentially, expose you to sexually transmitted diseases, and the last is (assuming you're sensible in your choice of object) completely safe. This is, in my experience, the sort of self-destructive logic that leads teenage girls to think that doing "everything else" is acceptable and safe - oral sex, anal sex, etc. - and that as long as they keep penises out of their vagina that they have maintained some magical standard of purity where they can look their parents, priests, and teachers in the eye and say "no, I'm not having sex, you don't have to worry." In other words, the sort of decision that has led to recent rises in throat infections with sexually transmitted diseases. Because since oral sex isn't "real sex" and won't make you "not a virgin" there's no need to be safe about it.

I tend to agree with you that many girls, and boys, these days rush into sex. I was, and am, very happy that I didn't. However, I think that assigning an arbitrary significance to penis in vagina (PIV) sex not only devalues the sex lives of those individuals who, on the basis of their sexual orientation or desire to avoid any risk of pregnancy choose to avoid it, but makes it difficult to have an open and honest dialog with teenagers about safer sex practices in a way that actually educates them. Saying "you're a virgin until someone sticks their penis in your vagina" (or, presumably from the male perspective, "you're a virgin until you stick your penis unto someone's vagina") sounds, to many teens, like you're saying "since, virginity is what is valuable, you can do anything else sexual you want as long as you avoid PIV (or apparently object in vagina) sex, and we'll still think of you as our wonderful innocent kid. In fact, you may have had oral sex with 10 boys, and anal sex with 3, but if you still go "virgin" to the marriage bed you'll please the church... and gosh we hope your husband to be doesn't mind that case of gonorrhea his "virgin" wife gave to him.

Virginity is not just a word. It is a concept loaded with societal baggage. Yes, you are more than welcome to define it however you want, and I have no problem with someone choosing that, for herself, putting an object in her vagina is something she doesn't want to explore because she wants to keep that for someone special, but when you as a sex educator not only continually discuss the medically inaccurate phrase "breaking the hymen" as having some sort of profound significance, I have to take exception. If either you or Tyger had said "exploring penetration for the first time with a partner you love can be an important part of your sexual awakening, and maybe you want to wait instead of using a dildo by yourself the first time" I wouldn't have objected. I don't disagree. If you two had said "the first time you have PIV sex with someone it may be painful, or it may not be," without making light of the pain, (which even with a cautious loving partner can be significant and traumatizing for some women,) I wouldn't have objected or disagreed. Hell, if you had said "the rabbit is kind of a large toy for your first experience with penetration, you might want to just use your fingers to see if its something you like," I would have applauded. I wouldn't have even argued with "some people would consider putting an object into your vagina to be a loss of virginity, however since not all women have a hymen the concept of "popping the cherry" is not only medically inaccurate its pointlessly judgmental and can lead to women who naturally have lost their hymen due to athletic activities feeling devalued when they don't bleed or experience pain on first intercourse". But to impose your arbitrary standards using a word that, in this and many other cultures, is associated with a profound moral judgment I object to strongly, especially when you combine it with not just outmoded but factually inaccurate information about the hymen. I think that part of your responsibility, if you are going to present yourself as a sex educator, is to provide information in a neutral manner that _educates_ people and helps them make an informed decision rather than judges them. Give them your opinion about morals, certainly, it can help them make sound decisions, but give them facts and options that allow them to make up their own mind.

I would rather that boys and girls considered oral sex to be sex, anal sex to be sex, vaginal sex to be sex, and even fingering to be sex, if having them talk about it in that light taught them how to make intelligent, considered, sexual decisions that keep them emotionally and physically healthy. But PIV isn't the be all end all of sex. No one would consider my sexually active gay and lesbian friends to be virgins just because some of them haven't had PIV sex, some of the men have never stuck their penis in a vagina, and some of the lesbians have never experienced penetration. PIV, and for that matter virginity, have only the value we give them. If people want to assign them some sacred significance, let them do so. But don't present it as fact. Cultural decisions and valuations may be important, but they are arbitrary. Factual health and sexuality information is not.

[Mikayla1]

Well, first of all, I guess my assigning the "arbitrary" significance to penile sex to causing my "non-virginity" (as I stated, when I was YOUNGER) was due to my parent's definition of "virgin." As you point out, there are many definitions of virginity - personal, legal and cultural. I would wager that MOST parents of teenage girls would NOT feel that their young daughters sticking objects in their vaginas was an "innocent" sexual practice.

I am offended at your constant suggestion that I am not upholding my "sex educator" status by stating my OPINIONS here. When, in other posts, people ask about oral, anal or other types of sex there is ALWAYS a warning about STDs, HIV or social ramifications. So to suggest that I SUGGEST that having oral sex or anal sex with "10 boys" allows a young girl to remain innocent is remolding my words in a context where they were NOT presented.

I would point out that in MY mindset, as a young woman, I realized that I wanted to explore my sexuality. Due to MY definition of virginity, that I received through my parents, I felt that PIV sex was the thing to avoid until I was ready. I knew that having consentual, safe ORAL or touching activities couldn't get me pregnant - but I could still explore my sexuality. Back in the early 80's there was little discussion of AIDS - so I felt that in replaying MY PAST HISTORY relating to MY VIRGINITY that it was unnecessary to point out that STD's were a concern for me, cause at that time, they really weren't. Especially since I knew whom I was with. I was not running around rampant with lots of boys, I had relationships. I did not find it necessary to state all this in a post where I was discussing MY personal beliefs about virginity, but apparently I had to.

You say when I, "a sex educator not only continually discuss the medically inaccurate phrase "breaking the hymen" as having some sort of profound significance, I have to take exception."

The fact is, the phrase "breaking the hymen" is a culturally universal term. When young people see the "sex video" or hear the sex talk, they are NOT told, when your hymen stretches to a certain point, etc. Nor are they told exactly what a hymen is - a fleshy, stretchy ring of skin with a space for the menstrual blood to pass through. There are variables of course - from solid, practically unbreakable hymens, to barely-there hymens. There is never a discussion of that. No way at no time did I suggest that using a tampon makes someone a "non-virgin." Nor do I suggest that those women who have lost their hymens due to physical activities (cheerleading for example) are non-virgins. In another post from months ago, this discussion came up and all these points were made.

In my opinion, if you are sitting in your room at night, thrusting a hairbrush handle, cucumber, or sex toy into your vagina to the point that your hymen is no longer there, you are de-virginizing your BODY! There is a whole separate mindset here when it comes to the emotional virginity a woman feels.

When I post here, I try to be EXTREMELY cognizant of any young persons who are reading the post but whom we know nothing about. I would be remiss if I suggested that having penetration with anything allowed them to be a virgin. There is such a fine line here between what WE think is a virgin and what society, different cultures or different religions consider to be a virgin! I can not just black and white it - and that is what my post attempts to state.

You are looking for an answer that takes away my personal opinion and I just can't do that here because when it comes to "virginity" there are too many variables.

When you read my posts, be wary when I say MY OPINION, if I am stating a "fact" I will say, statistically speaking, medically speaking, or whatever. I am careful to not put "my arbitrary standards" into a formal context. I do think, however, that even as the sex educator here, I can still share my opinion and past experiences to lend some insight to why I see things in a certain light.

I woulld never have said, what you suggested, that "a rabbit toy might be too large for your first time, just use your fingers." I do not find that being "nuetral."

I find no error in giving my opinions here - I have been on this site for over 2 years - and people have come to expect my experience and my opinions on things. Being "nuetral" is not my mode of relating information. Not to mention that as sex educator, I have never claimed to be a doctor, nurse or health professional - but have relied on my sexual knowledge and experience to give answers. I do research topics, I do look for medically relevant information, I do intertwine this with my personal experience - and will continue to do so. For you to tell me how to relate my information or how to post on this site is irrelevant and unnecessary as well as judgemental.

Furthermore, I deliberately veered from the discussion of gay or lesbian sex - that is such a loaded topic on so many levels. I attempted to stay within the realm of the original posters question - which was is using a pentrating toy not good for a virgin! For you to suggest that my omission of a discussion of those persons or other persons who do not "bleed" upon first intercourse means that I am putting some social disgrace on them for which they should feel "badly" is ridiculous!

I stand by my other post: this is something that is subjective to EACH person, the realm of virginity is personal, religious, cultural or social. IF a woman decided to insert toys, use fingers, have oral sex, have anal sex or PIV sex - then she should make no excuses for that CHOICE - and make no mistake, it is a CHOICE to do any sexual activity (and please, let us not have a discussion of forceable situations here). As long as she is SAFE, uses protection, thinks about her actions and the ramifications of them - then it is an individual CHOICE of how, what, when or with whom or what she initiates sexual activity!

You state, "If people want to assign them some sacred significance, let them do so. But don't present it as fact. Cultural decisions and valuations may be important, but they are arbitrary. Factual health and sexuality information is not."

Cultural valuations, religious valuations, family expectations ARE NOT ARBITRARY! You can not have a discussion about virginity without bringing in these considerations - it just doesn't happen. I state the FACT that a broken hymen is NOT the definition of virginity - in technical terms - having sexual intercourse is what renders one a non-virgin, but I do not find it that black and white.

Factual health and sexuality information is important, imperative and necessary - but in THIS discussion it is NOT the only consideration!

IF I, as the sex educator, were to say to this young lady: "technically speaking, you become a non-virgin when you have sexual intercourse for the first time. So, if you want to explore your sexuality with toys, fingers, or whatever other objects you would like, as long as you are safe, do not hurt yourself, and refrain from using unsafe objects, even if you "totally stretch out your hymen" you will maintain your virginity" would be wrong. I can not and should not black and white a PERSONAL decision with this many variables in this manner.

People come here, see "sex educator" and make decisions based on what I say. If I place my answer based only on those facts and sexual health considerations and do not address the reasons why she may NOT want to, or reasons why culturally, spiritually or personally some might find that to be inaccurate then I am remiss in my "job" here.

I even go out on that shakey limb at the end of my post when I say, if this poster, or any other, WANTS to explore their sexuality with insertable toys, then do it without excuses or shame! It is HER body and HER decision, and I feel that NO ONE, not me, not you, NO ONE can and should make that decision for her!

[lynnzerben]

Might as well add my 2 cents worth here. In 7th grade I woke up one morning with an insane pain in my lower abdomen. It felt like intense period cramps but I wasn't due for 2 weeks. When the pain won't go away and I started throwing up, they took me to the hospitable. It turned out to be appendicitis, and I had to get my appendix removed. While I was under the knife, they cheek out my ovaries, since the pain might have been caused by problems there. When I got home I noticed my nether regions looked different. It wasn't until years later that I realized that it was then that I lost my hymen.

Fast forward to now. I have never had intercourse, I have never give nor received oral, a guy has never felt me up, all of my make out sessions have been with clothes on, and I've dry humped once.

I own toys, and enjoy them very much. One of my toys is even penetrating.

I still consider myself a virgin.

p.s. If anyone has seen the movie Chasing Amy, there's an interesting scene talking about when do you actually lose you're virginity.

[Tyger]

Elizabeth T, and anyone else I may have offended:

First, I respect your opinion(s) such as they are. And, yes, you made some good points. I would like to say that insulting a member, no matter who they are, though you did it articulately, is not a way of getting your point across in a positive manner.

However, if you notice in our posts, we DO mention the fact that there was actually a lengthy debate of what makes or breaks a virgin (pun intended). I should've found that post, and put a link to it in my original post. I didn't for a few reasons though-to encourage those newer members to search the site and look at old posts, I don't really like to repeat myself over and over again, and going all the way back to find that post is very time consuming. But here are a few that I have found:

Scared Virgin

At What Age Did U Loose Your Virginity?

Sex for the First Time

Virgin

1st Time Having sex

What To Do?

There are several more, but these are good examples. I hope these are a bit more helpful.

Speaking for myself, and I hope Mikayla agrees, we really do answer as many posts as honestly as possible. We also want newer members to read past & present posts that they think may pertain to them. And, in so doing, don't want to repeat repeat repeat ourselves and get redundant. If that makes sense?

For members that have certain questions, by all means, ask ask ask away! When I have questions, I do a forum search (located at the botton of the forum page) first, to read what's already there. Getting past POVs from members that may not post, and maybe some different ways of saying the same thing that make more sense, KWIM? Don't be surprised if we do link up to previous posts, or direct you to the Sex Education tabs at the top. This is again, so we don't have to repeat what's already been written.

I hope all of this makes a bit of sense, and is a bit more explanitory.