Thread From Somewhere Else

[Angelina]

this came from a different site and i was shocked and no man i had talked to isnt

what are your thoughts

Some years ago, I was at a private play party being held in a large house that had a number of private rooms. A woman I knew somewhat approached me for a scene. She really liked being tied up with rope so that she couldn't get loose but had a hard time finding men whose skills were good enough to prevent that. She had heard about my special interest in rope bondage. We talked beforehand about what the scene would and wouldn't involve. (Me and my negotiation fetish, don'tcha know?) One of the things she wasn't interested in was that the play be sexual. Given that "sexual" is a somewhat vague term, I proceeded to ask her if several different acts would or would not be OK. All of them were not. OK. Candidly, I don't much like doing nonsexual scenes but I figured what the hey. I find her attractive, we seem to have a certain rapport, the scene will probably be "adequately" fun anyway, and who knows what the future might bring, right? So we do the scene, and it's actually not half bad. (For a non-sexual scene, anyway.) Oh, and no, she couldn't get loose. [grin]

So the scene is finished and she's getting dressed when I hear her quietly say, almost more to herself than me, "You actually kept the agreement to not be sexual. That was interesting."

Huh?

I turn to look at her, my jaw hanging open.

"What do you mean?" I ask her.

"You're the first one who ever did that," she replies.

HUH???

"Yeah," she continues, "All of the other men have just gone ahead and had sex with me anyway."

I cannot believe what I'm hearing.

"What do they say afterwards?"

"Usually something like, Oh, it just happened."

I just stare at her, stunned into speechlessness. Then it dawns on me that she was likely thinking that I would break the agreement as well. She went into the scene anticipating that that would happen. All throughout the scene a part of her brain was waiting for that to "just happen." She was expecting that I would break my word. A part of me starts to become really angry at her that she would think that of me, but I decide to not say anything. After all, I had kept my agreements. We finish up and rejoin the party

I get to thinking about her prior experiences. That's not OK. It didn't "just happen." A blue car driving by on the street outside the house "just happened." A cloud drifting overhead "just happened." A man intentionally engaging in sexual behavior after he has explicitly promised to not do that is not something that "just happened." No, that assertion just plain doesn't fly.

Over the next several months, we go on to have several more private play dates of a similar nature, although as she gets to know me better certain things that were previously not OK now become OK. I love happy endings.

So a short while ago, at a small dinner with some local kinksters, I tell this story and one woman at the table replies, "What's your point?" When she sees that I'm kind of staring at her she continues, "That's more the norm than the exception." The other woman at the table looks at me and ruefully nods agreement.

It gets me to thinking, when Greenery Press was considering publishing "The Kinky Girl's Guide to Dating" I was one of the pre-publication manuscript readers. After I had read the manuscript, I called the publisher and said, "Are you sure you want to publish this? It's basically one long catalog of horror stories about what jerks the local male doms are. An awful lot of these stories are about men lying to get sex, lying about their other relationships, and lying about other important things. If I was a local submissive woman I'd feel like running screaming in the opposite direction. No way I'd want to get involved with these guys."

What particularly bothered me about the manuscript was that the author wasn't talking about newbie men. She was talking about established, well-known guys. Guys seen at places like local munches with some frequency. Guys (supposedly!) well educated about basic SM principles such as consent, respecting limits, and so forth. Guys who knew better than to pull crap like that. This bothered me, rather a lot, particularly the implications.

So what I basically have here is at least three women, all of whom seem fairly rational and emotionally stable with no anti-male axe to grind, and all of whom are separately affirming that being lied to by men -- in particular, being lied to by local, known, supposedly educated men -- in order to get sex/play/etc. is a common experience for them. In particular, incidents involving men lying or breaking agreements in order to "get" sex and/or to avoid using condoms seem to be extremely common. (In "The Kinky Girl's Guide" manuscript the author recounts an incident in which she wakes up to find her dom fucking her. She's not too drowsy to discover that he's not wearing a condom, which is a direct violation of their safer sex agreements. He was apparently hoping that she'd be too sleepy to notice. When she angrily asks him why he did this, his only reply is a hangdog facial expression. Their relationship ends soon thereafter.)

In my travels across the country, women in other locales have affirmed the basic truth of this. We men are notorious for outright lying (about really important things) to women in order to get play, to get sex, and/or to avoid using condoms.

My God, is the situation really that bad?

[vanilla_bean]

That is scary stuff. Hope it's not true!

[sass]

I thought pretty hard about this before I decided to reply. Saddly, I think it is probably true that many (don't know that most) men do lie to get what they want at times. I think the further into role play and such one gets, the more this becomes evident. However, let me say that I do not hold men totally to blame for this. A lot of times we women give mixed signals. Now it seems to me if there are sex contracts, the lines should be clear, but since I have never gotten that deep into BDSM, I can't say for sure. It is a slippery slope and I am sure there are times when participants - male AND female - slide the wrong way.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[mystofpric]

Now i have been lied to and mislead by men, but nothing to that extreme. A) I'd have to wonder if these cases are not rape and should have been prosecuted. why go back? I, like Ms, have never deleved anywhere as deep as they are talking and perhaps stories like this one are why I never will.

I also have to wonder how much of this is just a jilted lover....

[Tyger]

I don't feel that women who wear tight clothing, wear make up, or show their thongs are "asking for it". Having been raped as a child, I know the violation that women feel upon being raped. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't take what I say wrong, but, if that woman goes into these situations KNOWING that men have broken their word with bondage play, had sex with her anyway, and she shrugs it off, yet CONTINUES to do so, then, in this case, she IS asking to have this happen to her. Having a fetish is one thing, but not practicing it safely is totally another.

If she wants/ed to do such activities (or did, cuz judging by the post, she's now in a relationship with this guy that didn't break his word?), in a safer environment, she really should've gone to a DOM club, where you do pay to do such things, but, the SUB is in total control, and if she didn't want sex, it wouldn't happen. Yes, it would cost $$, but, at least she'd be safe. I would think that the therapy costs would be staggering!

Both men & women can lie to get what they want, sexually. People in committed relationships usually don't. However, on the dating scene, I too came across many men that would lie, decieve, and omit stuff, just so that they'd get sex. Do all of single-doms do that? No, but it's very common. Especially with men/women that aren't looking for a partner, just a good time fling.

[sun_flower969]

....don't take what I say wrong, but, if that woman goes into these situations KNOWING that men have broken their word with bondage play, had sex with her anyway, and she shrugs it off, yet CONTINUES to do so, then, in this case, she IS asking to have this happen to her. Having a fetish is one thing, but not practicing it safely is totally another.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It seems to me that she is into being tied up and taken. The idea of against her will is a turn on. Her stating that she doesn't want sex is part of the fantasy in her mind... Just my thoughts.

I get it. It's all good if that's her thing but NOT EVERY woman has that fantasy!!!

[sass]

Good points Tyger and Sun. I think the reason I have thought about this post so much is that I have recently become somewhat interested in BDSM but not to the point that I could do it with a total stranger. There would have to be a trust factor there somewhere, either by knowing the person well, doing the club scene Tyg mentioned, knowing the person through another person I could trust, etc.

I think if you go looking for no-strings sex, and throw in an element of violence, AND do it with total strangers - well, I just don't think you can be too surprised if/when it goes a direction other than what you say you want.

I also have to wonder, if the woman in the story KEPT doing it even after it went further than she wanted - can we really be sure she didn't want to be taken completely? Can she be sure? Having had experience with molestation and rape too, I do not in any way condone sexual assault, but it just seems like she may be wanting more than she is admitting even to herself. At best, there are mixed signals there.

[Guest eminatic]

hmmm. well his post pretty much hit the nail on the spot.

all the men i have encountered so far seem to show me that men have no shame. and then when i say that, some man will inevitably say, "oh you've just been talking to the wrong people/that guy was barbaric/most men are like that. but I'M not like that" and then proceed to prove to me that they are, in fact, very much like that.

its gotten so tiring, i've finally decided to give up on men, however i am not a lesbian...so i guess that makes me some sort of asexual being

[Shariana]

That's one of my fears about BDSM with anyone other than someone that I love and that loves me. I can trust my SO that much, but have trouble trusting anyone else.

[synirr]

all the men i have encountered so far seem to show me that men have no shame. and then when i say that, some man will inevitably say, "oh you've just been talking to the wrong people/that guy was barbaric/most men are like that. but I'M not like that" and then proceed to prove to me that they are, in fact, very much like that.

I'm no man, but I'll still tell you that yeah, maybe a lot of men are like that, but not all are. I've known many good men in my life, so they're out there if you know where and how to look. My best friends have always been of the male persuasion.

[mystofpric]

I'm no man, but I'll still tell you that yeah, maybe a lot of men are like that, but not all are. I've known many good men in my life, so they're out there if you know where and how to look. My best friends have always been of the male persuasion.

I agree. I ahve met some real douche bags. Then again I even know those knights in shining armor. (the horse is a little dirty) Em, hold out judgement until you have met every man on the planet. Or even justr the right man.

[Guest eminatic]

a "good" man is just one that has not yet shown his true colors. im so tired of every man i come across saying "oh you were treated wrong but IM a real gentleman" yet i can already see right through it.

i do have male...."friends"...mostly because the only people that talk to me are guys, and i can see that the only reason is because they are trying to get me to have sex with them, yet still pull that same line expecting me to be stupid enough to believe it. i dont take them seriously and certainly would never expect for them to ever be there for me or keep their word. i notice that most the time when even talking to a guy i start to get so PISSED off i will usually walk away in mid sentence to prevent my anger getting out of control.

ive already sworn to myself to NEVER be used for sex again, and to NEVER let another male lay its filthy hands on me.

[synirr]

I have male friends who are not constantly trying to have sex with me. I've spent the night with some of them, slept in the same bed with them, been in hot tubs alone with them... they never once made a move. We are just friends. A couple of them were at one time attracted to me, admittedly... that's how we met... but it's not like that anymore. Now that they know me better, I'm just "one of the guys". These are guys who have been there for me and continue to be there for me, but they don't bend over backwards to try to impress me, either

Em, you're a very attractive girl. You're going to continue to find that men are attracted to you, and yeah, upon initially meeting a new guy that's probably going to have a lot to do with it... but they're not all filth, I promise, and sex is not everything to all of them. You'll find that out in time, though, you're just going to have to meet a few more people first I think.

As for your last sentence though, good for you!!!! NEVER let yourself be used, but on the other hand... giving a guy a chance to show his true colors (and potentially finding out that, contrary to most guys you've met, his true colors are nice,) doesn't necessarily require you to be completely vulnerable. Be skeptical, but be open to being proven wrong.

[sun_flower969]

I have male friends who are not constantly trying to have sex with me. I've spent the night with some of them, slept in the same bed with them, been in hot tubs alone with them... they never once made a move. We are just friends. A couple of them were at one time attracted to me, admittedly... that's how we met... but it's not like that anymore. Now that they know me better, I'm just "one of the guys". These are guys who have been there for me and continue to be there for me, but they don't bend over backwards to try to impress me, either

Em, you're a very attractive girl. You're going to continue to find that men are attracted to you, and yeah, upon initially meeting a new guy that's probably going to have a lot to do with it... but they're not all filth, I promise, and sex is not everything to all of them. You'll find that out in time, though, you're just going to have to meet a few more people first I think.

As for your last sentence though, good for you!!!! NEVER let yourself be used, but on the other hand... giving a guy a chance to show his true colors (and potentially finding out that, contrary to most guys you've met, his true colors are nice,) doesn't necessarily require you to be completely vulnerable. Be skeptical, but be open to being proven wrong.

Well said!

[synirr]

One more thing to add... don't let the ones who have done you wrong leave you bitter. It'd be a tragedy if the bad things that have been done to you leave you incapable of recognizing a good thing when you see one.

[thurisas]

I'm a guy...at least the last time I checked. I couldn't imagine doing the things as revealed in that original post. That seems to be a very large violation of trust. As far as the woman in the post goes, well, I'm of two minds. It COULD be that she's a bit naive or completely ignorant about the idea that the sub is actually in control and that any agreements should be adhered to...and there are people out there not bright enough to figure that out. After all, she's just submitting and that seems to be her nature where that is concerned.

For Em, well, I'm sorry you've met some real jerks out there. Keep this in mind, though. The second you allow a man to use you for his own purposes and then you decide to forego the hassel of men altogether is when the one who used you as truly won. What does he care after he's gotten what he's after? You need to pick up your own pieces, learn, and grow from the experience. Like someone else said, be skeptical but be open. Incidentally, I'm not looking to get sex from you. Val's all I need and slightly more'n I can handle.

Randy.

[sass]

a "good" man is just one that has not yet shown his true colors. im so tired of every man i come across saying "oh you were treated wrong but IM a real gentleman" yet i can already see right through it.

i do have male...."friends"...mostly because the only people that talk to me are guys, and i can see that the only reason is because they are trying to get me to have sex with them, yet still pull that same line expecting me to be stupid enough to believe it. i dont take them seriously and certainly would never expect for them to ever be there for me or keep their word. i notice that most the time when even talking to a guy i start to get so PISSED off i will usually walk away in mid sentence to prevent my anger getting out of control.

ive already sworn to myself to NEVER be used for sex again, and to NEVER let another male lay its filthy hands on me.

Em, I have been used and abused by men most of my life (noticed I did not say ADULT life) and I felt the same way as you for awhile. But then one day I just decided that I was not going to let the scum bastards who hurt me win. It is not easy to change your mentality, but you can do it. You owe it to yourself to do it. Not all men are bad. I thought they were but have met some who have proven me very wrong (not easy to do) and I truly hope you will too.

[vanilla_bean]

I know I'm lucky because my dad and brothers are amazing, stellar people. Because of that, all my life I've know that men can be great people too. I wish everyone could have had the same experience. Trust me though, there are good men out there. I have several in my life.

[Guest eminatic]

i didnt want to turn into a hateful bitch...but its like i cant stop it. and that makes me hate him even more, because he has no idea just how much damaged he has caused, and doesnt even care.

which makes me hate myself for becoming a hateful bitch and letting him win.

which makes me hate him still more for winning. =/

i feel like under normal circumstances i could easily forget him...i only wish that my virginity wasnt fucking STOLEN when i was NOT READY. and any time i think of the possibility of another guy i am reminded that i will always have that horrible first experience, connected with him forever.

[ToyQueen]

Em, you really need to get professional help. I'm sure there are professionals at the school who can help without costing you a lot of money. But you need to learn to be a survivor, and not a victim. Please talk to someone.

[pappyld04]

Not to be mean but you are letting one ignorant man set the bar for you!

[mystofpric]

i didnt want to turn into a hateful bitch...but its like i cant stop it. and that makes me hate him even more, because he has no idea just how much damaged he has caused, and doesnt even care.

which makes me hate myself for becoming a hateful bitch and letting him win.

which makes me hate him still more for winning. =/

i feel like under normal circumstances i could easily forget him...i only wish that my virginity wasnt fucking STOLEN when i was NOT READY. and any time i think of the possibility of another guy i am reminded that i will always have that horrible first experience, connected with him forever.

Is your ex a jerk? Yeah, proabbly a real ass. But unless your accusing him of rape you need to be a little more open to your own role in sexual activities. based on teh posts you wrote you seemed quite happy having sex with him.

As a rape survivor I'[ll tell you there was about 2 years when i would freak out and just shut down if a guy did anything to remind me of my ex, my rapist. He was also my first boyfriend, and I haven't dated since. I'll be honest at first it was because of him and my fear that all men would be like him. Instead fo dating and really opening my self up to men, I played the field, sex ala carte. Now I can't tell you that this will work for you, it might make things worse. But what you do need to do is to reclaim your sexuality. Right now your so tied up with him that your forgetting what makes you a sexual enitity and that isn't him.

You going to find jerks and slobs. Yes. But i promise there are good guys out there. My best friend is a guy, his name is John. (btw john if your reading this hi hun!) He is a sexual being, I am a sexual being, yeah we had sex (good sex) but is that what our relatinship is? Not in the least. I can call him if i need a shoulder, when I'm having boy troubles I can talk to him and get a different perspect. He gets my humor, and knows how to make me laugh. He's seen me at my best and I've seen some pretty nasty shades of him. BUt what keeps our friendship going? He's a good guy, he makes the effort to be my friend and I owe it to him to make teh same effort.

Will you find a John? Hopefully not, he's mine! But I hope you will find a good man, who, even as just a friend, can help change your mind.

[Guest eminatic]

yes, i forced myself to believe him when he said he didnt notice that i was crying and trying to stop him.

i also told myself it was true a second time when he "forgot" that we had agreed a few hours prior that we would use protection and again didnt notice my trying to stop him. i looked the other way several incidents after this and at some point it just became normal that when i said "no" or when he promised not to do something to me, he would do it anyway and that would be the end of discussion.

i tried VERY hard to look the other way whenever he did things like this, because if i didnt it would mean admitting to myself that i had been used and raped. i thought if i looked the other way and tried to stay with him it would somehow validate his actions and make everything ok.

stupid, i know but that is why all of the hatred hasnt surfaced until now, in a sudden burst, because i had been trying to push it to the back of my mind the entire time and convince myself that there was nothing wrong. my friends saw right away and made a huge effort to get me to call the police or at the very least get away from him, but of course i was too stupid to listen.

[mystofpric]

yes, i forced myself to believe him when he said he didnt notice that i was crying and trying to stop him.

i also told myself it was true a second time when he "forgot" that we had agreed a few hours prior that we would use protection and again didnt notice my trying to stop him. i looked the other way several incidents after this and at some point it just became normal that when i said "no" or when he promised not to do something to me, he would do it anyway and that would be the end of discussion.

i tried VERY hard to look the other way whenever he did things like this, because if i didnt it would mean admitting to myself that i had been used and raped. i thought if i looked the other way and tried to stay with him it would somehow validate his actions and make everything ok.

stupid, i know but that is why all of the hatred hasnt surfaced until now, in a sudden burst, because i had been trying to push it to the back of my mind the entire time and convince myself that there was nothing wrong. my friends saw right away and made a huge effort to get me to call the police or at the very least get away from him, but of course i was too stupid to listen.

Well you just took the first step. You have to tell people, not to broadcast but so that you can see that your not less of a person from it, if anything your more for it. I didnt call the cops either, i was drunk and my drink was spiked, in fact i didn't even piece things together until i miscarried about a week later, early but still sucked. When i called my ex the next morning to tell him i was calling from work so my parents wouldn't know.

"hey we need to talk."

"I just woke up."

'I'm sorry but it's important."

"Can I call you back later?"

"No it cant wait until later, and it is later you said you;'d be here this morning."

"I was up late last night, i just woke up."

"I get that but I need to talk to you, it' s important!"

"Why, are you pregnant?"

"Well not any more"

"You took care of it?"

"NO it took care of it's self."

"That's a nice way to tsart my day."

"Yeah well it was a great way to spend my weekend."

That conversation is burned in my mind forever. Your not stupid and your not to blame. YOur situtation is very different than the one lin teh article. What he did is sick and wrong. However and please trust me in this, not all men are like these to. Right after this, maybe a few weeks. I met a guy that was so far the opposite i thought he wasa fake. His name was Ryan, and i honestly think if i hadn't met him than I would not be who I am today I would be angry and bitter and miserable because I have been a sexual creature since before i knew what sex was! Remember the words of the immortal bard "To thine own self be true."

[synirr]

Many hugs for you, Em.