Hunting Or Murder?

[Tyger]

Wow! Where to begin! I love this forum, and I hope that others respect my opinion, as well as any others here too.

Ok, so I am a semi-active animal rights person. I'm not as HOORAH as I use to be, with the PITA flyers and such. But, I try and stay away from products that I KNOW are animal tested and such.

Anyway, I FULLY understand that, due to the lack of natural predators and so on, that hunting is neccassary to keep populations of some animals down, like deer, moose, bear, rabbits, and the like. I get it. I don't like it, but I get it.

HOWEVER, what I do consider "murder" of these wild animals, is when people shoot the animals for trophey only. Only taking the rack, head, hooves, or pelt, or to mount the body on a plaque, just to prove that their inner cave person has once again, conquered nature is ridiculous to me. Now, if someone successfully hunts (without the use of feeders that are allowed here in TX-which I was taught as a Mainer, was "baiting") and kills an animal, and takes and uses AS MUCH of the animal as they possibly can, or pass on to someone else that will use it, I find that perfectly fine and also, respectful of the animal that surrendered its life for that person that killed them.

It's hunting season most everywhere. I don't mind that. But what set me off this time, was that I saw a deer, or what was left of one, on the side of the road, without it's head. It was obviously CUT off (not ripped like a truck could possibly do), and the deer was a buck. Maybe, just maybe, the deer was hit, and the person took the head. But, if it was hit, why not take the whole thing? Not only was it callous, but gruesome as well.

I fully expect to tell my daughter about hunting, and explain where meat comes from. I allow her to eat meat (though I only eat chicken and fish), and enjoy it for now (hey, she's almost 5, and loves her steak). I want her to try new things, and form her own opinions, but I hope to also teach her to respect nature, whether it's thru the lense of a camera, or a scope.

[horneyhousewife]

Wow, Howard.

I was preparing a statement but yours hit the nail on the head!

I am in Connecticut and our oversized deer population is creating an oversized tick population and an oversized coyote population. the Gold Coasters won't allow us to cull the herd, the state finally had to step in and tell them to sit down and shut up. Deer/car collisions are at record highs, and they cause injury, death and property damage in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

That, and venison is really good eatin'.

If you're anywhere close to me, I'll take the kidneys. I have my dog on prey-model diet and lean kidneys are tough to come by.

Check your state's DEP website. Venison liver in CT has been shown to contain unsafe levels of heavy metals and we have a "Do Not Eat" advisory. The rest of the critter is fine, but the liver, as the body's filter, can get a build up of crap that you don't want in ya.

[Mikayla1]

OK, here is a dissenting opinion:

I am very, very anti-hunting! I KNOW the reasons behind hunting: thinning the animal population, food source, sport - I get that. However, FOR ME, Hunting is just too.....gross and mean! I know, a bit naive but I have always had issues with killing for sport.

My in-laws live in the south, and they do A LOT of hunting - deer, quail, turkey, squirrel -you name it, they shoot it. They eat the meat (which I personally dislike - I only eat chicken), they taxodermy the heads (when they are not blown off), they enter pictures into contests - the whole nine yards. That it THEIR right, and I don't say much about it.

I, on the other hand, literally cry when I pass a deer that has been hit on the road. I bury racoons that I find dead in the street, I still cry when I see Bambi (the movie) - so FOR ME, hunting is just not going to happen!

For people who like the meat - great, kill what you NEED - but most hunters not only kill what they need, but many times kill whatever they can shoot! FOr my in-laws, and for many (not all I am sure) sitting in those little boxes in the trees for 6 days straight killing any livng thing that rattles a leave is fun, exciting and just plain the end-all.

I do not see the reason to continue to kill when you have already killed what you are going to eat. I also do not understand stuffing the poor thing's head and planting it on the wall! Is it not bad enough that it died, you have to keep the head? We don't stuff chickens and turkey heads on the wall after our Saturday night dinner? Why stuff the heads people? I don't want to lie in bed looking up at a 8 point Buck on the wall....staring at me....with those fake glass eyes! EWWWIIIEEEE!

So, there you have it - my opinion, although the minority, on hunting!

[whiskeywoman]

Amen to that Howard.

As most folks know, I recenty moved to the mountain area of Colorado.

This is elk hunting season.

I have 2 huge stand up freezers that are full of antelope, venison, lamb, beef, chicken, pork, bear, moose, duck and tons and tons of fish.

The beef, chicken and pork were all raised on this ranch with the intentions of it going into the freezers.

Since this is elk season, there are a lot of poachers and game hunters that simply want the racks from the bulls, but not the meat.

This is a real crime, since the meat is VERY tasty.

each hunter is only allowed so many tags, if you go above what your tag limit is, the animal is taken away by the DOW, and

will be given away as a donation to a family.

As stated earlier, why waste the meat?

We have several deer that graze on a small hill above our house,

the owener is furious, why?

because he is a cattle rancher, and the land that the deer are grazing on, is where his cows go out to eat, they have destroyed most of the grasses that his animals would normally eat, and they have also destroyed most of the hay that he has had to use to supplement the cows diets.

In a one week period he has lost over 2,000 dollars worth of hay.

he has tried various methods of deterants to keep the deers out of the pasture and away from the hay.

nothing can be done about it, he can not shoot the deer, he can not shoot blanks at them to scare them away.

in order to hunt on private property, there must be no less than 160 acres of land.

he owns 150.

The cattle he raises are his means of support for his family.

If he can not feed them and get them to a certain weight, he will get less than top dollar, even if they are black angus.

Winter is right around the corner, and this is the time that most animals really bulk up.

Unfortunatly, it is also the time when deer come out and begin to eat crops, hay, and destroy things.

As for is it murder?

that depends, I am an animal lover myself.

I have 5 dogs (1 of wich is about to whelp any day now), 3 cats, a cow, 2 goats, 2 sheep (the female is gonna have a baby), at least 2 dozen geese, 3 turkeys and a handful of chickens.

unfortunatly, foxes have come in and destroyed most of the chickens, and the dogs got ahold of two yesterday.

I had no choice but to kill the chickens and dispose of them, the meat was inedible.

I managed to save a few of the feathers for use in making dream catchers.

does that make me a murderer?

In my eyes no, I simply could not stand to see the chickens suffer any longer, and chose a quick kill method to end their misery.

PETA and all the tree huggers need to understand things from our point of view as well.

We all have to eat, we all need a home, and we all have our own point of views.

However, there is a differance between an animal love and an extremeist.

And it is those extremeists who give the real animal lovers a bad name.

[horneyhousewife]

Wow. That sucks for that farmer!

Here in CT, we can get special crop protection permits for farming and agriculture to curb that damage thing. Most farmers around here are able to take deer all year long as long as the deer is eating his crops.

If CO doesn't have a program like that for farmers, then he should get a whole bunch of people with the same problem together and force the legislature to do something about it.

Fair is fair, after all.

[Kinky Twinkie]

I bet them bones would make a great stock to use for cooking and what you don't eat out of them organs, it makes great catfish bait. Just a few hints to help you not waste a thing

Glenn

[Tyger]

LOL Howard!! I don't care for the mounts either. My hubby has a havolina's skull that he killed mounted (which those I don't mind~those are MEAN). He wants to put a mount on the wall here, but, so far, he hasn't shot anything, and besides, we have no room. I told him when he gets his own den, he can create his own dead animal zoo if he really wanted too. So long as I don't hafta see them!!! I just hate them!

As a joke, 2 yrs ago, since he'd been bitching about wanting a deer mount on the wall, I bought that Buck, singing deer. It's looks relatively "real" as far as mounts go, especially if you just look at it quickly. And, it can be set to motion, or push a button and the thing says different little sayings, and sings songs like "Keep them Doggies Rolling", "I've got friends in low places" and such funny ones.

He didn't really fully appreciate our humor in buying it, but it's up. I told him that that's my compromise. LMAO!!!!

[Tyger]

LOL Howard!! I don't care for the mounts either. My hubby has a havolina's skull that he killed mounted (which those I don't mind~those are MEAN). He wants to put a mount on the wall here, but, so far, he hasn't shot anything, and besides, we have no room. I told him when he gets his own den, he can create his own dead animal zoo if he really wanted too. So long as I don't hafta see them!!! I just hate them!

As a joke, 2 yrs ago, since he'd been bitching about wanting a deer mount on the wall, I bought that Buck, singing deer. It's looks relatively "real" as far as mounts go, especially if you just look at it quickly. And, it can be set to motion, or push a button and the thing says different little sayings, and sings songs like "Keep them Doggies Rolling", "I've got friends in low places" and such funny ones.

He didn't really fully appreciate our humor in buying it, but it's up. I told him that that's my compromise. LMAO!!!!

[pappyld04]

For the last 5 yrs. or so we've had a standing order at the processing plant for the unwanted ones. Some of these people find thrill in killing them just to say they did. Although they are not left in the woods they will take it to him and tell him they do not want it and he will sell it to us for the same price he would charge the hunter. If I thought for one second that the meat would end up in a household that needed it I would not buy it but if I don't I know there are a few more people on his list for $$$. I know a few people who will give a roadkill to the needy but if I ever hit one in my car you can bet that it will get an earfull everyday as it feeds my family! There are also the type of hunters that get a thrill by killing them and cutting only the backstrap. The rest is left where it was downed. When we bought a house by the river a few years back I cannot tell you how many traps I confiscated, asswipes that I ran off the place, and have even caught where they were plotting with sweet peas right by the house. Somewhere along the way they have become what I most despise. They cry about their right to own them but they think nothing of the rights of the people who they put in jeopardy or the ones who they trespass upon to play their games. There were 3 deer that would pass through the north field and follow a trail that went right behind the house. If I had wanted I could have sat in the kitchen with the back door open and gotten them myself. There appears to be a growing number of people who have either lost the real reason that people hunt if they ever knew. Some just like to say they killed something. A few years back I was working with 2 younger boys who claimed they were bow hunters. Both had well over $500 set-ups with the fiber-optic sights and all kinds of fancy shit. Every night they would come to work and talk about the one they had shot but never could find. Neither of them got 1 with a bow and when rifle season rolled in they were caught by the Warden and their rifles were taken. Thank God for small favors!!!! It's just a damned shame that they weren't caught before they served up a buffet for the coyotes!!!

[pappyld04]

To cook a kidney---YOU BOIL THE PISS OUT OF IT!!!!! LOL!!!!

[thurisas]

Over 30 states have deer and venison farms where they raise animals to sell...seems contrary to raise these animals if they're a nuisance.

There are more than 8000 operating turkey farms in the US...this also seems contrary to a need for hunting them.

It's almost, to me, like saying we have to watch that cow population.

Humans invaded the habitats of these animals, wiped out the natural predators, and then started complaining when the repercussions reared their ugly heads.

Is it really about population control? Maybe... probably, so now our ancestors have made a bed we have to lay in. I don't like hunting, I understand the need for it and being in Maine I know some people depend upon their kills to help them through the winter. I also understand that farmers need to protect their cattle.

What I don't like is living in the country on my nice little plot of land and not being able to go outside without a blaze orange vest for a couple of months each year. I also hate having to spend the money to post my little 14 acre plot so that some bozo doesn't come plodding through and put my family at risk. I know you'll come back with the whole hunter safety course training but that training is only as good as your most irresponsible people who pass the course one day and are out drinking and hunting the next.

Thurisas.

[pappyld04]

I really don't see a need to allow anyone to hunt on your property if you want to try and distance yourself from the morons who are said to have taken the safety course but I think they were asleep during the most important parts of it. There are a lot of armed morons that couldn't hit the side of a barn if you locked them inside of it. A large part of the problem with firearms is the fact that it appears to implied that the buyers know how to use them safely or for what reasons. I have been around firearms as far back as I can remember but with the owners I seem to meet these days I see a great need for at least a little control. When we bought the house on the river we went out there to sight them in and check to see how they operate. Anytime I get a used one I like to put a box or two through them to see if everything is in order and see if there is any quirks in the mix. I've seen a few that may be capable of ejecting rounds right into an open shirt or a pocket if in the wrong hands. While I walked out to the creek my gf went through the house to see if our local pilferers had been in there tearing it up again. She actually met someone in there who hauled ass out the back door and she did pursue him and fired a shot (while screaming for me) her rifle had jammed. I did track him but since it slowed me a bit he did make it to his car and got out of there! Since we know our sheriff real well we asked about how often they patrol the area and told him about her shooting over the guys head he laughed a bit but actually didn't like the idea of her shooting towards him. The reason I say towards him is that she was not aiming to kill merely to stop. I guess he feel lucky that I was not in the immediate area as I would not have been so nice. But that is the big difference between experienced handlers and people who buy them without a clue as to the responsibilities that should go along with that purchase. It's the same as the difference between a father and a sperm donor if you know what I mean. And the bowhunters that I spoke of had all that expensive equipment but never learned how to properly kill an animal. There was talk of one of them shooting a deer in the asscheek more or less and the deer running off with it in him. Why anyone would shoot anything in the ass is lost on me. That is something my brother and I used to do with our first BB gun. It had enough power to propel a round but wouldn't even come close to entering anything. I know it sounds bad but we knew for a fact that it would only sting so it wasn't a worry to us. I don't know why people buy all these firearms and other weapons but never really know anything about proper use. I took one guy hunting in the Cappitan Mountains during black powder season. He had just bught it and probably every accesory that he could find in the shop. I made a BIG mistake thinking that he had practiced at least enough to learn the sights. My nephew is one of the best weapons I know for spotting deer. He spotted one a bit off the road so I pulled over and we got out. This man fired 2 rounds at the spike and missed. I could have hit it with a rock at that distance. He was just getting prepared to start reloading when I snatched it out of his hands and grabbed him by the shirt and forced him in the truck. I threw his rifle in the back and drove him home. I was probanly wrong for allowing him to retrieve it and keep it. I should have broke it in two around a tree. Although I am not against a right to bear arms I am totally against a lot of the people who tend to possess them. Allowing these people free run of your property is a death wish. Your neighbors have probably been wondering why it took you so long. All of the traditions that used to be associated with hunting fly out the window because some MORON has an urge to kill anything just to see if he has the nerve to do it. And they rarely harvest the kill. BTW, I have heard talk of a little rider that passed with the immigration bill. It has something to do with hunting/fishing without the owners consent. I didn't check it myself but heard it through my fishing club.

[Kinky Twinkie]

Glenn;

I catfish all the time and catch a LOT of catfish. I never knew they ate deer I use worms, chicken liver or shrimp for channel cat and live bait for flatheads, but deer? I think the leftovers makes better buzzard baitl

they don't know deer liver from chicken liver trust me, neither one is natural bait in their ecosystem. if you get really hard up get a bar of soap or a hot dog and they grab that also

Glenn

[thurisas]

Oh, I am fully able to shoot anyone who comes on my property. Of course, it would be with a Dakota RZ-2000 with a Quantaray Zoom lens that can get some pretty good detail up to 300 meters away. That and the fact that this property has been posted since the week after we moved in can set up a case, even if its a shakey one, for me. I am still vehemently against having a gun in my home and would rather look for other alternatives.

Thurisas.

[pappyld04]

Thurisas & poontang. The bill I spoke of was meant for the whole country I think. Aside from the consequences you spoke of this bill strips their ability to obtain a permit for a substantial period of time. I got the impression it was for life but I have been wrong before so it may be well worth looking into. BTW, I'm in Oklahoma. And while I do not advocate firearms I agree that it sucks when we have to defend what is ours by the same thing that we choose to dislike. I see that you are only doing what you must even if you don't like to own a firearm it is still a very necessary evil in your case. Your reasons are much clearer than most. Although I normally tell others that they should do everything possible to avoid killing another it really becomes a different thing in the country and under the circumstances you are in! My major reason for telling others about using a firearm is that I hear a lot of talk about shooting but most have no clue about the things that happen when you draw a bead on a human being. This is something that your brain will register and in a lot of cases I believe that they would end up dead by their own weapon. People can shoot paper targets all they want but to actually send one down range at a human being is a hurdle that is difficult to overcome in a split second. But they are talking close range life and death and I tell them to run because I know how this could end. Happy Hunting!!!

[pappyld04]

"When It Comes To Protecting Yourself... You Are ALL Alone!"

Police cannot protect and are not legally liable for failing to protect individual citizens.

"Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,444 A.2d 1(D.C. App. 1981), the courts stated: Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community"

A former Attorney General told Florida legislators that police responded to only 200,000 of 700,000 calls for help to Dade County authorities.

Back in 1989 there were 168,881 crimes of violence for which police had not responded within 1 hour.

Can you imagine what the numbers are today?

2,400,000 people use a gun to defend themselves every year.

THIS WAS JUST COPIED FROM A SITE CALLED undergroundtraining. Just in case anyone doesn't believe it when Howard said that cops are not responsible for crime!!!

[Tyger]

Being someone that was born & raised in Maine, I feel that I must speak up for Thurisas here.

I'm not fully sure if the blaze orange is "law" or not, but, up there, property lines aren't always easily marked, and then there are several hunters (especially out of state ones) that just don't give a shit, and will shoot at anything that moves, before looking really close to make sure, so blaze orange is a necessity, not an option, lest some idjit thinks you're something he'd like to put up on his wall! Then, when you confront the hunters, they get all pissed off that you DARE mess with their "RIGHT" to hunt, and that you don't want them gracing your property! They don't really care if it's posted or not, if they don't get caught, who's to know?

Maine has some of the best hunting, IMO, with it's hundreds of wild miles, and many different species of animals, including, what I was once told, "Monster Deer" since they get so big up there! For such trophies, many don't care HOW or WHERE they get it, just so long as they get that rack/meat and notariety of successfully hunting Maine deer/moose! Whether it's wrong or a felony really doesn't matter much after someone gets shot, or one of your animals is shot. It's kinda a mute point by then, now isn't it? True, you have legal ways to get back at the offender, but that doesn't undo the damage careless hunters do, IF they're caught.

It may not be right, but that IS the way it IS up there. Trust me, I've LIVED it too. I grew up knowing that come the middle of October, you don't step foot anywhere near the woods without blaze orange on!! My father always made a lot of noise in the woods, and told me to do the same, and also believed that if someone shooted at him, he'd shoot back, cuz if the idiot wasn't double and triple checking what he was shooting at, then indeed, he was a danger, and he needed to protect himself.

I don't know why y'all think that his POV of NOT wanting a gun is such a bad thing. I have guns, and feel semi-protected from them, even if it's a false sense of protection, since I can only really shoot one of them. I feel more protected from my dogs than the guns. Which, I know what Val & Thur have dogs, which I am sure would protect them if need be. They live in the country, where there is crime, but not even a quarter as bad/violent as in the bigger cities.

So, if they don't want guns on their property, it's their perrogative, and I don't think that ANYONE should argue with them for that. Thurisas was in the army, knows HOW to shoot a gun, respects the power of one, and CHOOSES NOT to use one. Welcome to America, where you are truly free to make up your OWN mind whether or not it's necassary to have guns in the house! It's HIS choice to make, and I don't think that feeling sorry for him for his beliefs isn't necessary, to me it's demeaning.

I can see both points. I think hunting is important to keep the populations down & healthy. However, raising "wild" animals on "farms" isn't needed either. I have guns in the home, yet I respect people who don't want any. I guess I'm just a bit more open-minded in these things.

My point is, is that if you're hunting for food, or keep the meat and use all that you can from an animal, then it's not only benificial, but also respectfu. If you shoot something down for the head, hooves, pelt, or rack, then, IMO, you're no better than a parasite.

[mensaphiliac]

There's room for all God's creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.

Oh, and for those who might know someone who is wasteful with the game they harvest, you might suggest that they contact Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry. All you have to do is drop it off, they take care of the rest.

[pappyld04]

That's a mighty strong opinion for those of us who choose to live without them isn't it? That's OK though. Some of us have insured your right to say what you like. I'm sure that most of us have owned firearms at some point in time but things happen. Hunting was a family affair when we were on the farm. Sunday dinner was often taken from the pasture or canyon areas around there. Or even from our pond if we wanted Bullfrog, turtle, snake or fish. We took only what we needed and would never stray unless we called the neighbors because of one that hopped the fence before dying. And we would offer a portion to them if they wanted it. But that was then. We were taught to live off the land and to respect it. The majority of hunters now shouldn't even be allowed to look at a firearm. The trespassing signs at the river house were always stolen or shot up. They tear up fences to get their ATV's in, put up tree stands, feeders, and think they have a right to it. I would take the feeders to set up for my Doberman's food, deer stands would be beaten with a sledge and thrown at the base of the tree or set by the road with a for sale sign on them for all to see. I never caught the ATVs. But you should see my supply of traps. Not to mention the notches on my blowgun and wrist rocket. They may not be fast but they are comical when they trip over everything because they have no clue where it's coming from. These are excellent alternatives to slinging lead. Just because we don't have firearms doesn't mean we're not armed. I can normally got quite a few direct hits before they can figure out where it may be coming from. Normally they run. But if they pursue I have lots of time to set up elsewhere. I haven't had the opportunity to test any improvised devices yet but I normally don't keep those as handy. Next year may be spent setting up a few other nasty little surprises. Nothing deadly just effective attention getters. I'll post the results if I do it. Might be some "funniest home videos" cash in it just for fun too!!!!

[thurisas]

Howard,

I choose not to own a gun. Could I still shoot as an expert as I did in the army or when I shot competetively? Possibly. Do you think you can defend yourself at 300 meters out? Doubtful. Guns solve nothing. Want proof? Look at the Iraq war and see that even though a bit of peace is starting to take a shaky hold in some places, it can never do so without the diplomacy to back it up and I think you'll find most experts say the same. There are always alternatives to violence, but people like you simply don't get it, never will, and I won't try to convince you. I am finished with your blatant disrespect for people with any opinion that does not match your own and you can consider yourself officially ignored.

Thurisas.

[pappyld04]

I don't care whether someone chooses to have a gun in their home or not, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. I think Howard made several valid points in his posts, the most important being if someone is going to rely on dogs or the police to protect them.. good luck.

Check post #27 for some stats I got from a site just a few days ago about how well we are protected by the cops!!

[pappyld04]

Excuse me, Pappy, but why not call the sheriff after taking the license plate numbers and descriptions of their cars parked on the roads near the property. If you take a picture of them trespassing on your land, or turn their stands, and traps over to the Sheriff, He can arrest them for a number of violations. When the case goes to court, you will know who they are, and can seek a civil injunction against them, so that when they violate the injunction the next time they come on your property, you can collect damages from them. ( Punitive damages, not merely compensatory.) Then all you need is a camera to catch them on the property for your case in court, and you will be feeding off their pockets. Attacking them with rocks, or pebbles, thrown or from a sling shot is a criminal offense. You can be charged, too. Oh, they will also be charged for violating your trespass notices, and for hunting/ trapping without the landowner's permission, but that won't be much help for you.

When I am armed, it is to protect myself and friends should we be attacked by trespassers we throw off the land. That has happened to me, and I was ready to do some shooting, and let it be known that I was ready. The wonderful men with their shotguns and their threats to kill us, backed down and left the property. Trespass is a misdemeanor, and is not the kind of offense that authorizes a land owner to use deadly force. Entering an inhabited dwelling without permission is a much more serious offense, however, and most states allow the occupants to use deadly force to protect themselves and their families in their own homes.

I want to identify the trespassers, escort them off the property, notify the sheriff, file a complaint if they will let me, and seek court sanctions against them. The Court can suspend their right to hunt as a condition of its sentence, for instance, and even take away their guns, stands, traps, and vehicles. I want them to know that the worst place they can find themselve in the whole world is back on my property. And, I will also let them know that if they intend to assault me, or threaten my family or property they had better pay up their life insurance. As a lawyer defending some of these kind of knuckleheads, I have had to remind them that they have just become the number one suspect the police will be looking for whenever anyone else damages the complainant's property, or sets up a tree stand, or traps, or breaks fences, or tears down sign. In effect, the Defendant becomes the insurance policy for the complainant. I tell them they had better pass the word that NO one is to bother the complainant, or answer to them.

You would be surprised at how fast that sinks in, and any thought of retaliation disappears.

Howard

I've filed a number of reports with both local and county just following the old CYA manual. I think they use these for toilet paper here. But they are there if things progress further so I can prove that there is no other recourse. It is well known how incompetent the cops are in this town. And county is more than 20 mins. away. I am under NO ILLUSION of thinking the cops could do anything. It is also known that the cops here tend to treat the "evidence room" like a personal shopping center. (One of the former cops traded stolen firearms to a guy for flashing lights for his personal car.) And our sheriff when I last spoke with him made no bones about being able to help. He knows well the things I do. Most of it he finds hilarious. My gf sees and talks to him about this stuff all the time. There's been times when he waits for me outside the courthouse with a smile. He'll tell me that someone complained or a rumor is going around or whatever and ask me about it. He has never arrested me for any of it. Only tells me to be careful. BTW, I do not see any reason to enrich the courts. And from what I've heard about the new legislation I don't agree with permanent revocation of hunting/fishing rights either.

[pappyld04]

Ironically, The one time I have fired back at someone shooting at me, the distance was about half a mile- across the Mississippi River! I was in Illinois, deer hunting with friends, conduction a deer drive in the bottoms below the Levee, West of (old) Valmeyer, Illinois, when some drunk began shooting at our blaze orange bodies with a high powered, Semi-auto .223 caliber rifle, from the Missouri Shore. The other guys ran a zig-zag path across an open area we had to cross, while his shots kept getting lower, and closer to them. I had a knee that was swollen and acting up, and I could manage only a low limp at best. No way could I run across the area. I waited until last hoping the S.O.B. would run out of ammo. When his bullets were hitting only 6 feet over my had, and less than 6 feet behind the last guy to run in front of me, I decided that I had no choice. Because he had fired so many shots, I had been able to narrow down the area on the Missouri Shore where he must be standing. So, I turned my 12 Ga. slug barrel up to a 45 degree angle, and fired my 3 rounds from my pump shotgun towards him. I then reloaded my gun, picked up my empties, and began to limp across the open area. I could not see my hunting companions in the woods on the other side of the gap, and I kept waiting for the rounds to come in again when I was in the open. Nothing happened. I was about to cuss out the guys, who were hiding behind trees, and low dirt mounds( yah think?) when one of them said, " LOOT!!" and pointed west towards Missouri. I turned in time to see the outline of a man, unarmed, running to beat the band through an open area skylined above some RR tracks on the Missouri Side of the River, at least 20 feet above where the shooter must have been.

There were no reports of anyone in Missouri being hit by my slugs. I checked. When I calmed down, I did suggest to the young hunters I was with that the next time someone is shooting at them, and they are armed, that they give at least covering fire for their friend to reach cover with them!

So, yes, I do think I can protect myself out to 300 yards. I can even do it with a handgun. However, in most situations, I would use that distance to take cover, Knowing quickly that I was either facing someone with a rifle who is a good shot, or some idiot with a pistol who cannot hit the broadside of a barn at that distance. The law presumes that a gun is deadly at any distance; I do not presume that every shooter is capable of hitting his target at that distance.

If you actually tried to get to know me, your opinion of me would be vastly different. MY " liberal " credentials are impeccable. But I am not so open minded that I let my brains fall out of my head, too! I believe in Peace, too. I did my undergraduate work in American Foreign Policy. Al Queda has declared war on WESTERN CULTURE. They want to kill you , just as they want to kill me. My problem with some of my silly, liberal, peace-at-any-risk friends is that they really think everyone is NICE, and that there are no EVIL people ( other than Republicans) in this world. I do not share those illusions. I may have wanted to believe it, once, but after representing Killers, and Sexual Predators, and Armed Robbers who picked their victims on the basis of race, as an Assistant Public Defender, I have seen human EVIL. The Holocost did occur, to a lot of NICE people, who did nothing to fight the Nazis.

In IRAQ, Al Queda decided to use the country as their Mid East assembly point to bring all their Jehadists to kill Americans. They were so arrogant( when have we seen Evil be arrogant before?) they even decided to create a civil war, by trying to do what Charlie Manson tried to do in L.A. in 1968- kill one group of people, and make it look like another group did it.

Remember, Hitler sent polish speaking German soldiers into Poland to supposedly fire on German border guards, and that became the pretext for the invasion of Poland and the beginning of WWII on Sept.1, 1939. The Red Chinese claimed that it was Tibetans who were attacking Chiinese to justify their invasion of Tibet in 1949.

The reason we have peace happening in Iraq is because American soldiers have been Killing Al Queda extremists at amazing rates, and the attrition of these solders, foreign, and domestic, has robbed Al Queda of its manpower to carry out attacks. Americans have brokered Peace deals between the Sunni, and Shia moslems, and have helped Sunni moslems root out the Al Queda forces that have turned their towns in to blood baths, indiscriminately killing civilians as well as American soldiers. The Iraqis see that the Americans Are respecting their Mosques, even when they are being used by terrorists to store firearms, to live in, and to use as a base for attacks that kill civilians, too. Iraqis have had enough, and they want Peace. They also understand that Iran, their old enemy, is actively involved supplying equipment and manpower, and facilitating other arabs to enter Iraq, to kill Iraqis and Americans. They have come to understand that Americans can be trusted to keep their word, that we do help people repair damaged buildings, and build new infrastructure. and that we keep our word about turning control of their country back over to them. They know that is not going to be the case with Al Queda, and Iran.

Have I missed something?

I certainly know that there are some people out there who refuse to face reality, and even will argue that their " reality " must be a lot different from mine. OKAY. Argue the point. In Debate. In College classrooms. In Church.

But out in the real world, understand that EVIL people do exist, that they are proud to do evil, that they seek fame for their evil, and they could care less how many degrees in the Humanities you hold, or how many times you go to church each week, when they decide to begin killing. You live in Texas. You must remember the killings at Lubby's Restaurant, now more than 10 years ago. It lead a doctor, who had left her gun in her car, to comply with Texas law, to have lunch with her parents in the restaurant, to run for the Legislature, and later push through your Concealed Carry Permit law which Gov. George Bush signed. She watched her mother and father executed by the madman, and was helpless to prevent it because she had obeyed the law as it was. Killeen Texas made national news over that killing spree by another EVIL person who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, and take as many people with him as possible.

How is your diplomatic discussion going to help you in such a situation? When my friends and I were confronted by armed Trespassers, threatening to kill us, I was standing on their flank, my gun in hand, but behind my back, just watching and waiting. My friend talked to them. He told me later it was a lot easier to talk to them knowing I was covering him from their flank.

I personally have had several occasions to use diplomacy to avoid being mugged, or shot, by thugs. In some cases, I was also armed; in others I was not. I had one occasion where my feet saved me from being robbed, and worse. Guns are just one option people have in dealing with others. But all the other options are a lot easier to try when you know that if the Manure hits the Air Conditioner, you have that final " Lethal Force Option". Anyone who wants to shoot people or kill people is Evil, and a moron. I don't want to shoot anyone, and to date, I have not HAD TO. But I am fully prepared to do so, IF I AM LEFT NO CHOICE.

The difference between us is that I have prepared myself to make that choice possible, and have trained myself to see situations developing, so that I afford myself every option at my disposal. If some nut drives a truck through the doors and windows of the restaurant where I am eating, and begins shooting, I don't have much time to explore other alternative options. If someone is trespassing on my property, has torn down my fences, and No Trespassing signs, and No Hunting signs, and is carry a gun, I am going to presume he doesn't much care about any other law either, and that he is armed and dangerous. I am going to try to call for help if time allows. If not, I am going to take such steps as I believe are prudent to deal with him. If he attempts to shoot me, I will try to stop him. If he dies in the process, it was his choice.

If that makes you think I am callous, you are wrong. It makes me alive. Survival is all that is important when someone begins shooting at you. If you regret I survived and he didn't, shame on you. Where is there any morality in those sentiments? Can you not distinguish between good and evil? Or has the denial that there are people who are EVIL made you conclude that there is no " good or evil "? Am I evil because I choose to live, and not die at the hands of some crazy or drunk, or drugged person, or because I refuse to stand by and watch other innocent people die at the hands of such people? Since when?

There is a difference between how I view my responsiblity in this world, and how others seem to think. Tyger doesn't want a gun because she won't face the necessity of using it. I was trained as a Life Guard, and have 9 saves to my credit. I look at carrying a firearm to protect me, and other innocent people the same way I look at carrying a long pole to reach people in trouble in a large pool and pull them to safety, or using a Life Ring to throw to someone who is drowning, or using my skills as a swimmer, and life guard, to go into the water and rescue someone in trouble. Those same skills can be used to drown people.

I am not wired that way. As my best friend said to me, " you are my favorite Boy Scout !".

Best regards.

Howard

I think at least a part of this is directed towards me but it seems to have grouped a few others in also. Noone was trying to attack your choice to carry or own firearms. Merely pointing out that others do not always make the same choice. And for a number of different reasons. The incident you speak of here should tell you that not everyone is willing to fire at a person even while being fired at. As you said they were all hiding. My little brothers best friend was a cop here a few years ago. We were talking about just this subject because of what I (unarmed) did to the former (armed) cop. This kid was fresh out of the Marines and could not believe that I would not run for cover then do something. It may be the Army or maybe just personal experience that tells me that cover does little or nothing defensively. He was telling me of a firefight between with 3 people v. only him that they all ran for cover then fired. He could not figure out why I called him a pussy until I explained to him that almost everybody runs first. Had he stood his ground he could have shot all three of them before they ever got one shot off. To a lot of people this may sound stupid. But they've never seen how people react. Panic fire rarely hits anything (except innocent bystanders) so standing your ground and picking them off is the only way to fly!!! Only experience teaches us these things. I know for a fact that I have many options before any real danger appears. Now if terrorists show up here I would definitely pick up arms and defend what's mine. Since you say you have prepared yourself for this let me ask what you intend in case of an act of terror? My close friends and I have already made these plans. We know where we will meet and if one doesn't show we shall go to see if we can assist. After 9/11 it is apparent that this country is far too lax. Take note that right up to our involvement in WWII we were trying to be a peaceful nation. It took about a year to swing into full wartime productivity. But even those who held on for peace eventually took up arms to do what's right. This is really starting to take the same shape. Notice how all of a sudden Korea and Iran start to get braver? Isn't it odd that the first invasion by GDub version 1 was like beating up girl scouts? Just because we don't keep firearms doesn't mean we know nothing of them. Nor do we believe that all people are good. We know that's bullshit. Ever think about studying those IEDs that they use over there? If they ever do invade here you better have more than a permit or holster. They will use things you never thought of. BTW, I think Hitler had already taken over a country or two before the actual invasion of Poland. And he had people even here in the US. But in the bordering countries he would send in the saps and blackjacks with his cronies to begin the softening up process. Actually I think the US brokered away one area without a shot think it was a peaceful resolution. It actually was a test to see if anyone would interfere with his powerplay. I'm a bigtime war history buff and have a few documentaries on WWII.

[Mikayla1]

Wow...I get a testosterone high just reading this thread...drop your pants boys and see whose is bigger and let it all go......

[Tyger]

I was thinking that we should see who could pee in the snow the farthest!! LMAO Great minds think alike, huh Mikayla?